Charges for use of facilities

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 05 Sep 2008, 12:28

Hi

I've recently started working at a private school and they want to start charging a percentage or termly rental for use of the facilities. Can anyone give me an idea of what amount would be considered fair, both for a percentage of earnings or for a termly rental?

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 05 Sep 2008, 14:07

Steph,

My school charges £45 per hour for the music room and £60 per hour for the main hall.

Openwood

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 05 Sep 2008, 14:12

Hi, do you mean £45 per hour?

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 05 Sep 2008, 14:13

How do you benefit if for example, I charge 28 an hour?

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 05 Sep 2008, 17:45

I don't know what percentage the school I tune for take from the teacher, but I know that she's expected to get me in and to pay for the pianos being tuned once a year (they pay the other time). I think Openwood means to HIRE the facilities as opposed to teaching FOR the school. Kick me if I'm wrong...

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 05 Sep 2008, 22:09

Oh yes, I meant to hire the facilities. If someone is coming in to teach your students, they are adding value both to the school as a whole and more especially to the music department. It would be completely outrageous to charge them for that. Yes, they are earning money for themselves but they are also making the school more attractive to prospective parents - you don't charge people for doing that.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 05 Sep 2008, 22:20

BLOODY HELL, It's just sunk in to me what the original message was getting at. If that's what your finance officer is suggesting, he or she needs to be given a good talking to. You can't charge private teachers for enhancing the school's musical provision - that's completely bonkers. I bet the school prospectus is only too quick to point out how many instruments little johnny can learn whilst he's there - the staff who provide that tuition are ADDING VALUE to the school and Mr/Mrs finance office should be holding the door open for them and thanking them for bringing in more paying punters. Talk about taking the piss.

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 06 Sep 2008, 00:00

Steph wrote:Hi

I've recently started working at a private school and they want to start charging a percentage or termly rental for use of the facilities. Can anyone give me an idea of what amount would be considered fair, both for a percentage of earnings or for a termly rental?

I would suggest taking this up with the ISM, MU or a teachers' union. (Everyone teaching should be in one of these!) It's entering the realm of instrumental teachers being either employed by the school or self-employed (so working directly for the parent.) It's a complicated business; hence my suggestion that specialist advice is essential.
I am employed directly by a school, so I am paid directly by them for what I do. If you are self-employed, it could be argued that you should be hiring the premises and billing the parents yourself. (And possibly also setting your own fees and doing the recruitment of pupils yourself!)
Your situation needs clarifying before you start the term's teaching. Are there other teachers working at the school already who could give you an idea of what's being suggested? Some schools will try to get one over on you, so I hope you get it sorted soon!

(Just a footnote to Openwood: It sounds a dreadful idea, as you say, but I think it's perfectly legal.)

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 06 Sep 2008, 11:24

One third is the going rate in Lancashire if you teach in the big shops - some schools charge the kids direct and charge an administration fee on top

Barrie,

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 06 Sep 2008, 12:46

Whatever they charge it's better than having sticky fingers on my piano and muddy shoes on my carpet. There are also legal implications these days if you teach at home. (Criminal records checks, insurance against accidents on your premises, etc.) The little old ladies who used to charge half a crown a lesson would be horrified!

As far as I'm concerned, I'll teach anywhere but home!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 06 Sep 2008, 14:04

Descombes wrote: There are also legal implications these days if you teach at home. (Criminal records checks, insurance against accidents on your premises, etc.)

Its not a legal requirement to have Public Liability insurance but a wise move. As to CRB for teaching in in your own home that is a grey area if the parent is present .

Even piano tuners entering schools should be CRBed as they are classed as unsupervised workers but not many are, same with insurance they should have Public Liability if entering a school but again a lot don't.

Barrie,

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 06 Sep 2008, 16:13

it is very difficult in scotland to put yourself through a CRB check if you are self employed. I am CRB checked in for the school i work for. If I want to work in another school, I need a new check done for the new school. In Scotland you need to have it done for every place you work, if I remember rightly it is different in England, where you can use one certificate for all your jobs.

With my private pupils I have the parents present. Last time I checked there is no legal requirement to have a CRB check if you are a private teacher, even when the parent is not present. Hopefully the Scottish Parliament will change this though.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 06 Sep 2008, 17:50

I'm sure it's legal, but SO short-sighted. My SMT are wise enough to realise that freelance instrumental teachers give far more to the school in terms in terms of 'value added' (dreadful phrase, I know) than they take away financially - and this in a school that is far from rich. We try to make visiting teachers feel welcome and in the long term this generates something more valuable than a bit of extra cash; goodwill. People are more willing to give up their time to play a missing part in a concert or do some accompanying etc if they feel good about the school. I could weep over the accounts I hear of the way instrumental teachers (and piano tuners, of course) get treated in some schools.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 06 Sep 2008, 19:19

it seems that peripatetic music teachers are about as rare as hen's teeth these days, which is a damn shame. I first started playing the piano at about age 9 as a consequence of such a teacher coming once a week to give short lessons to kids. That Mrs Perry may have been a 'lid-slamming on fingers dragon in disguise' back then, but she not only taught me a skill which I can happily spend the rest of my life trying to improve, but also instilled in me a great love of many types of music for which I am eternally grateful.

/engage rant mode on related point
It's about time whatever government we have starts putting proper funding levels into the teaching of music in our schools again, and not just the 'greenwash' of singing lessons just because the instruments are free!
/end rant mode

I hope you get a decent arrangement sorted out Steph and don't have places trying to rip you off.

Before agreeing to pay ANY percentage or termly sum, I would seriously challenge the basis of their argument, given that you are the one providing a service and not them.

Put it like this, how many teachers which the school employ as staff, are charged for use of a classroom in which to teach pupils? I very much doubt any other teachers are paying to have the privilege of teaching there - wherever it is! The service you are providing is even better value for the school than the staff they employ for curriculum teaching, as they are not having to pay you a salary! No tax, no NI contributions, no pension etc etc, yet I am sure they would be happy to seek to attract pupils to the school on the basis of instruments taught as mentioned by a previous poster.

Best of luck and stick to your guns!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 06 Sep 2008, 21:08

Is it a private school, Steph?

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 06 Sep 2008, 23:37

yes. They want me to come up with a fair rental/ percentage option. I have no idea where to start. I was originally teaching in South Africa and the percentage of monthly income there was 10% paid to the school.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 06 Sep 2008, 23:43

The service you are providing is even better value for the school than the staff they employ for curriculum teaching,

Ahem, well, I couldn't possibly agree with that

But, the thing is ,Steph, as has been pointed out here already, YOU are providing THEM with a service and if they don't see it like that I really wouldn't waste time going in there. Seriously.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 07 Sep 2008, 09:31

Hehe, I had better clarify Openwood...

My statement in respect of value being greater than that of curriculum teachers, was based on the school's perspective in that they are not having to pay any salary, pension etc, in order to benefit from that service. I did not, in any way mean to denigrate the teachers! Both my parents were teachers and so is my partner (she would kill me!) and I have a healthy respect for teachers everywhere

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 07 Sep 2008, 13:49

genaa - no worries, I agree with the point you made!

God, I cannot get over the fact that a school could have the bare-faced cheek to demand money from visiting music teachers for the privilege of enhancing its teaching and learning provision. How a*se about face can you get? It's just completely wrong.

I need to go and break something.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 07 Sep 2008, 15:36

I need to go and break something.

Why not borrow my handy disposable Franklin Mint 'Pocket Bureaurocrat', complete with 'fatcat' smile and total lack of appreciation of 'fings wot matter like Cultcha'. Finished in a delicate bone china, it guarantees to bring a cathartic smile to your face as you hurl it against the wall. Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back, just £69.95 payable in three handy monthly installments

*

*terms and conditions apply, Pocket Bureaurocrat guaranteed for first breakage only**, all subsequent breakages at owner's own risk, no batteries included

**(probably during postage)

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 07 Sep 2008, 21:17

Why not borrow my handy disposable Franklin Mint 'Pocket Bureaurocrat'

Now THAT is something I really could use!

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 08 Sep 2008, 18:12

it looks like my school are about to start this deplorable practice too. I just don't get it, why not just employ music teachers to enhance the school? All of the music staff are experienced performers and we're all (if you don't mind me blowing my own trumpet) fantastic teachers with a proven track record of good results. How are the school rewarding us? By trying to screw us over with regard to holiday pay (we're currently employed, not self employed) and then they're going to make us go self employed and hire out their sh@te teaching rooms to us to teach in. Its rubbish. I'm looking for a new job.

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 08 Sep 2008, 18:48

I was really sorry to hear that, Joseph. I know of schools where that has been discussed, but I did not know it was happening as much as it seems to be.

I am fortunate to be in a school (independent) where we are employed and have just been given new contracts. Holiday pay, NI, pension contributions, etc are all taken care of; and there's the big advantage of not having to discuss money with parents. (I really hate that!) We are valued by the Headmaster and Director of Music and we have a lovely environment to work in, with good pianos.

So there are some places where things are improving, Joseph! Though I realise that this is no help to you!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 08 Sep 2008, 19:20

If you are employed by the school then the arguments against charging for use of facilities become all the more relevant - until that is the other teaching staff are being charged to use their classrooms!

Find a comparator teaching another discipline who does not have to pay for the privilege of using facilities and threaten to lodge a formal grievance with support from your trade union (hopefully you are a member of either the Musician's Union, or an appropriate teaching union and if not, why not?!). That might shake a little dust from their cobwebbed minds!

Good luck!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 08 Sep 2008, 19:45

Yes, speak to a ballet teacher or something who must use their facilities and find out what they're charged.
Of course, you could comply with the school's wishes, pass the charge on to the parents and add a pithy little footnote to explain why you have been compelled to take such measures...

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 08 Sep 2008, 19:46

I can't believe I created such a stir. Its better than watching Dallas. thanks for all the support however. I need to get myself signed up with a union, but am now more inclined to do housecalls where I can call the shots. Can anyone give me an idea of what to charge when doing housecalls. I currently charge 30 pounds per hour, but am afraid of upping the cost too much and scaring people away. Most of my calls are 5-10 minutes drive from where I am based.

Steph

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 08 Sep 2008, 20:05

Steph, do you always do hour long lessons?

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 08 Sep 2008, 20:06

I need to get myself signed up with a union

Too right. I wouldn't set foot in a classroom/teaching room without union cover.

Steph · Post by **Steph** » 08 Sep 2008, 20:07

Normally half an hour, but students preparing for exams take on an hour closer to the time.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 09 Sep 2008, 16:55

Hi Steph,

Tuition prices will likely vary depending on whereabouts you are, much like tuning costs.

Here in Winchester area I believe £30-35 per hour is about standard, though I don't have a teacher at the moment as nobody wants me hehe! I am too old and a bit more advanced than the local teacher wants to take on, and not advanced enough for the other local teacher, who only likes to teach at diploma level or above

Musician's Union details can be found here:

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 09 Sep 2008, 22:28

the other local teacher....only likes to teach at diploma level or above

There's posh

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 09 Sep 2008, 22:39

The service you are providing is even better value for the school than the staff they employ for curriculum teaching,

I'm actually looking through this thread to see who posted this comment! What an utterly stupid thing to say!

Anyway, I know that Grammar schools in particular will employ instrumental tutors with an appropriate music diploma(s) and not a teaching degree or BMus/BA(Hons) with a PGCE which curriculum teachers are required to have. The school's policy of charging for your enhancement of the services and teaching provided by the music department of a school is outrageous - though comes in close with that daft post I mentioned earlier!

Just out of interest, is the school a Grammar or private school?

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 09 Sep 2008, 22:45

The service you are providing is even better value for the school than the staff they employ for curriculum teaching,

I can sort of see what they were getting at, but as a class teacher I like to think that I am terribly expensive but TERRIFICALLY good value

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 09 Sep 2008, 22:49

ABSOLUTELY!

See if they can get through a UCAS application with Grade 8 viola and then talk about 'value'.

"Well I know I failed GCSE maths and English but I can play "Flight of the Bumblebee" backwards - will that do instead?"

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 10 Sep 2008, 09:51

I can play "Flight of the Bumblebee" backwards

That would be "Flight of the genetically modified Bumblebee" then.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 10 Sep 2008, 17:31

Markymark,

I made the comment which you find daft, and if you read a couple of posts below it, you will also find the explanation I provided to Openwood explaining the context in which it was made - i,e, from the perspective of the school not having anywhere near the same associated costs in terms of salary, tax, pension and NI provision when a peripatetic teacher not an employee is compared with an employee of the school. In that context I think you should find the comment anything but daft, as it is a plain fact. The piano teacher is effectively free - but they are wanting to charge them to come and teach.

As for appropriate qualifications, you need also to remember that the acquisition of a music diploma (teaching) IS the appropriate teaching qualification for teaching individual pupils; is therefore equivalent to the B.A/B.Sc/B.Ed and/or PGCE, and arguably takes most folks longer to acquire as well

Not doing down teachers at all - both my parents were teachers for the whole of their career spans, and my partner also teaches

Hope that makes a little more sense for you now?

Cheers

p.s. I just about passed my GCSE's way back when (the first year they were introduced) and can play Bumbleboogie - what do I win lol ?

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 10 Sep 2008, 18:11

genaa wrote: I made the comment which you find daft, and if you read a couple of posts below it, you will also find the explanation I provided to Openwood explaining the context in which it was made

As I mentioned, I couldn't find who wrote the comment never mind what had been written in it by looking at Openwood's quotation. Now that I know who wrote the statement, I was able to read it within the context and it does make more sense thanks. For the record, I'll withdraw the comment.

genaa wrote: As for appropriate qualifications, you need also to remember that the acquisition of a music diploma (teaching) IS the appropriate teaching qualification for teaching individual pupils; is therefore equivalent to the B.A/B.Sc/B.Ed and/or PGCE, and arguably takes most folks longer to acquire as well

I'm fully aware of the qualifications available for instrumental tutors/teachers but these are specialist music qualifications that allow the holder to teach an instrument or voice to either a small group or to individuals. For this job, yes, a diploma or degree is acceptable. However, these are not equal to degrees and certainly not equal to the PGCE. You wouldn't be allowed to teach in a classroom for say GCSE music with a music diploma only. Degree plus PGCE or BEd is the minimum requirement to teach in a classroom. Owing to the performance focus of the diploma, this is fine for the purposes of instrumental teaching. I know that the music boards will confirm this also because I've gone through the same system. As well as this, it is a heck of a lot cheaper and faster to do a diploma than it is to do a degree. Four years of study and a student loan later, I can vouch for that!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 10 Sep 2008, 19:10

Hi Markymark,

Best of luck with the student loan - not to mention the kids!

I agree that a teaching diploma is not the direct equivalent in terms of academic standards as a bachelor's degree and/or PGCE, I just meant it is the appropriate qual. if wanting to teach individual pupils.

Would be interesting to compare (not that I suspect anyone would have the records to add it up) just how long and how expensive it is to get a teaching diploma, particularly if one first has to complete grades 1-8 (not that it would be absolutely necessary to do so, but most diploma students I imagine would have come through the grade route). Timewise I am guessing that would equate to around 9 years minimum, but as for costs - anyone's guess I suppose.

Anyone able to put some figures out for the sake of trivia?

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 10 Sep 2008, 19:25

I suppose so but then you'd need to be at Grade 6/7 before encountering A-levels and then getting to Uni too!

Fees and costs for completing a diploma will cost sround 3500GBP and most will require you to have the final examination passed within 3 years of registering.

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Charges for use of facilities

Charges for use of facilities

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