New Yamaha upright sounds too "bright"

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 27 Jul 2008, 16:46

I bought a new Yamaha Disklavier (DYUS1A) 3 months ago and I have a problem with the sound it makes - basically I find it much too "bright" (ie harsh/cold/hard), which I gather is a feature common to new Yamahas. Can anything be done? My friendly local tuner said that he could soften up the hammer felts by sticking pins in them and breaking up the felt slightly, thereby simulating 10 years worth of playing, which would soften the hammer felts and reduce the harshness of the sound. That seems rather drastic - is it a sensible thing to do?

I'm actually a bit fed up with the instrument because I've wasted my money on the Disklavier which I find a bit useless, so I'll probably try and sell it soon. With that in mind I bought a 1930s Steck upright recently, and they are currently next to each other in the same room. Compared to the traditional piano sound of the Steck, the Yamaha sounds almost like an electronic instrument, which is fine if you're looking for maximum clarity and power, but not what I want from a piano - ideally I'd probably have a 1930s Bosendorfer or Bluthner grand if I could find one and had room for it (and 20K or so to spare!).

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 27 Jul 2008, 22:39

That seems rather drastic - is it a sensible thing to do?

Not drastic at all, I've had it done to my school Yamahas and also my own Yamaha C3 - It works a treat. I love Yamahas but I certainly don't love the harshness they often arrive with - a bit of tweaking by a good tuner and they sound fab. I wouldn't hesitate.

Interesting to hear what you say about the disklavier - I've never seen the point in them, but maybe others on the forum have more positive experiences of them?

ideally I'd probably have a 1930s Bosendorfer or Bluthner grand if I could find one and had room for it (and 20K or so to spare!).

You and me both

David B · Post by **David B** » 28 Jul 2008, 09:29

I've got one - a Bluthner from about 1920. I cannot sing its praises highly enough.

At 9 foot 2, its not what you'd call a baby, but it plays so softly and the bass is to die for

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 28 Jul 2008, 11:43

Thank you Openwood for your reply.

It occurs to me that 'tweaking' the hammer felts like that might affect the resale value or the guarantee? I'm rather between a rock and a hard place about the Yamaha - if the sound is going to be drastically improved I might decide to keep it, but otherwise I don't want to incur even more of a loss than I am already having to accept. The dealer I bought it from said he could only offer me 3500 pounds to buy it back as it is now second-hand, which is less than half of what I originally paid him. He suggested I should put it on eBay and I might get 6000 for it - but that seems hopelessly optimistic looking at the Disklavier (2006) currently on eBay with a 'buy now' price of only 2300 pounds.

re 1930s Bluthner/Bosendorfer grands: I played a couple of lovely instruments recently and to my ears they really sound marvellous compared to modern grands (even Steinways and Bosendorfers), and to be honest they make my "bright" Yamaha upright sound like a load of ****. One of them is a Bosendorfer which used to belong to Norman Wisdom, it never gets played these days and the owner is hanging on to it hoping that one day he'll get a high price for it because of the show-biz connection, the other is a Bluthner with a fantastic sound and touch sitting in a small local church where it is only used occasionally to accompany Sunday services! What a waste!

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 28 Jul 2008, 14:35

Hanonymouse wrote:Thank you Openwood for your reply.

It occurs to me that 'tweaking' the hammer felts like that might affect the resale value or the guarantee? I'm rather between a rock and a hard place about the Yamaha - if the sound is going to be drastically improved I might decide to keep it, but otherwise I don't want to incur even more of a loss than I am already having to accept.

I've been waiting for one of the "technical" members to reassure you that toning a piano ("tweaking the hammers") will enhance the instrument, if done properly, and will certainly not cause problems with the guarantee . This was discussed some months ago:

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... t=shackell

I hope that Hanonymose will read that and be assured! (It took me a while to locate it!)

I've also extracted this section from Steinways' website:

Toning
Many people mistake tuning and toning for one and the same process. The tonal quality of your piano is determined by the character of the felt covering of the hammers which strike the strings. With use, this felt becomes packed hard and the strings cut into the surface. The resulting tonal quality will be quite harsh. The operation to attend to this problem is called voicing. Our tuners can undertake some voicing at the same time as tuning, by prior arrangement.

My personal view is that new Yamahas are not fit to play when delivered and that expert toning is essential in order to modify the harsh sound which they seem to favour.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Jul 2008, 17:31

Tuning, Voicing/toning and regulating are all part of routine servicing and you can void a guarantee by not having them done

It fact you add to the pianos value if you can show a service record.

A new piano is just a blank sheet to work form

in days gone by even S&S use to send out pianos with a lump of mush on the end of the hammers shanks, the tech would arrive dope then voice and tone them to suite the client. Now you just get a standard product from all the makers most just take them as they are, but more are asking for them to be altered

it will take a few visits to get the sound you want but it is worth it

Barrie,

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 28 Jul 2008, 18:53

Phew!! That's a relief: Barrie has confirmed what I thought!

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 28 Jul 2008, 22:32

Thanks to all for your help so far.

I've just been talking to my local piano tuner about voicing the hammer felts. He says he'll do it if the piano action (the part with the hammers) can be lifted out without affecting any of the Disklavier mechanism, so that he can get at the felts properly to stick pins in them without risking any damage to the electronic parts. Do any of you guys know about this?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Jul 2008, 22:49

There are a few ribbon clips bit like the old printer cables to undo there is instructions on the action on what to do

Barrie ,

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 29 Jul 2008, 09:05

did you not notice this brighness when you bought the instrument? The Kawai pianos are a little less harsh but they only come in the silent.

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 29 Jul 2008, 10:45

OK thanks Barrie I'll tell the tuner that removing the action won't be a problem.

And Sussexpianos: I tried a few pianos in the showroom and my impression was that the Yamaha had a clear and gutsy sound compared to the other instruments. At the time I hadn't touched a piano for 20 years so my ears/brain/fingers weren't really 'tuned in'. But now after a few weeks practice and listening properly, the brightness of the Yamaha sound grates on my ears, particularly in contrast to a few really nice traditional-sounding instruments I've been listening to recently.

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 29 Jul 2008, 11:31

My reaction is still that you have NOT made an unwise purchase. New Yamahas have everything working perfectly; all you need is to get the exact sound you want, and an expert will be able to do that.
There's nothing worse than regretting a purchase when it's too late. I am sure that this should not be one of those occasions.

Post by **vernon** » 29 Jul 2008, 18:36

I still wonder why you bought a piano whose "sound" you dislike.
All of our stock is fine regulated ,toned evenly and tuned before sale.
After that, clients can be trusted to choose the one whose tone appeals to them personally- not the technician nor the teacher nor their piano tuner

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 29 Jul 2008, 22:02

I still wonder why you bought a piano whose "sound" you dislike

I suppose anyone who buys a new piano and then decides after a few weeks that it is too bright and they want to have it toned down is in the same position.

In my case, the piano I bought is the only upright that Yamaha supplies with the Disklavier (in the UK at least). I was completely out of touch with pianos at the time and was hoping that the Disklavier would be a help in recovering my technique. Now that I've been practising for a few months my ears are better 'tuned in' than they were - I have to admit (to my shame) that when I visited the showroom I was actually quite impressed by the digital sound of the Disklavier in silent mode, and its acoustic sound was of course much better than that. But now my ears are back in shape the true awfulness of the Disklavier tone-generator piano sound is apparent, as is the strident metallic sound of the new Yamaha acoustic piano compared to the mellow woody sound of a good 1930s instrument.

The piano tuner visited this afternoon and spent an hour sticking needles into the hammer felts. It hasn't made a huge difference, but I think there is definitely a slight improvement. I gather I'll have to play it for a few days/weeks before the changes to the felts will have their full effect.

Post by **vernon** » 29 Jul 2008, 22:33

Mr Yamaha goes to great lengths to produce a certain tone. So does Mr Kawai
If you don't like the result of their efforts don't buy and don't expect a tech to produce, from the proverbial sow's ear, a silk purse.
Use your loaf.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 29 Jul 2008, 23:14

Hanonymouse wrote:

The piano tuner visited this afternoon and spent an hour sticking needles into the hammer felts. It hasn't made a huge difference, but I think there is definitely a slight improvement. I gather I'll have to play it for a few days/weeks before the changes to the felts will have their full effect.

it will take a few visits the tuner has to get an idea of what you want, taking it down step by step is the safest way for him/her wait a week as it will compact a tad then contact the tuner and explain to them you want it 1 to 10 times softer

Barrie,

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 30 Jul 2008, 08:31

vernon wrote: ... don't expect a tech to produce, from the proverbial sow's ear, a silk purse.
Use your loaf.

Are you suggesting that I should use a loaf to produce a silk purse or that a Yamaha piano is a sow's ear?

Actually I'm not expecting miracles from the tuner, but he reckons he can improve on the standard sound quality that Yamaha delivers from the factory.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 30 Jul 2008, 10:25

i'm sure it will be fine in the long run. Yamaha's are technically perfect pianos and the bright sound is just part of the package. It can and will improve with several voicings. I guess the reason your tech wont voice it to be extra mellow all at once is because he wants to find out what tone you like rather than having to undo work and therefore costing more money for you.

I have heard yamahas that have been harsh and bright turned into warm and beautiful pianos. I have even played a 1930 bosendorfer grand that was harsh and bright! It was rather clapped out though, not a beautifully rebuilt one!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 01 Aug 2008, 15:38

Vernon,

With all due respect I think you miss the point when you ask why clients buy pianos the sound of which they 'don't like'. If all pianos cost the same and it was simply a case of selecting the one you liked best your argument would hold water, but alas, that just isn't the case.

I have bought Yamahas for school and personal use because they represent, in my opinion, the best value for money within the constraints of my budget. Of course there are better instruments out there, but they are outside of my price range. Fortunately I have access to a good technician who has subsequently voiced these instruments so that they produce the tone I want (actually they sound bloody great).

So:
1) Have I bought pianos that didn't sound ideal when I bought them?
Yes
2) Has my technician got them to sound the way I want them to now?
Yes
3) Did it cost loads of money to get them sounding how I want them to?
No.
4) Has the technician's work adversely affected the quality/value of the piano?
No

So where's the problem?

Also, we all know pianos can sound very different in different locations. A piano that sounds great in the showroom might not sound anything like as good at home.

I think Hanonymouse is doing exactly the right thing in the circumstances, and I also think the 'don't buy a piano whose sound you don't like' argument is just too simplistic.[/quote]

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 20 Aug 2008, 13:50

Dear Hamonymouse

Do not forget to keep us posted as you go down this voicing route. Somehow I sense that some people feel that one can change to tone to whatever you want by expert voicing. Somehow I suspect the tone of the piano depends on more things than the hardness/softness of the hammers. Making the hammers super soft may make the sound very mellow - but surely you must lose on control of volume of the note being played (the energy of the hammer goes into compressing the felt rather than vibrating the string.) and so on..

Given this - it is not clear to me that you will ever like your Yamaha - it looks to me as if you have fallen out of love with the Yamaha sound... but anyway - keep us posted and good luck with this.

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 20 Aug 2008, 18:43

Id buy a kawai K3 anyday

Its got the sound I want and a carbon action. What can I say more?

Post by **vernon** » 20 Aug 2008, 21:57

proper sense, Sussex Pianos.

Why buy a piano you don't like?

As has been said , a piano is the sum of the strings, hammers, design. aesthetic and cosmetic attributes,quality of hammer felts and sound board wood selection.
Even the case components, not leaving aside the scale of the strings and their respective gauges.Environment also.Lots of waffle talked in this area about voicing out defects. That eveness can be obtained is incontrovertible, softness or hardness, but , tone, No!. It used to be called "toning"- not any longer. Now it's "voicing" which is a non sequitur
This whole controlled design cannot be materially adjusted by fluffing up a few hammers, whatever the salesman says.

Phil.S.Tine

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 20 Aug 2008, 22:40

Dear Vernon

It is refreshing to read your words... this magic of voicing is much overrated in my opinion. Luckily I am still in the happy position of really liking the tone of the my piano (a Beckstein)... if I hope that this does not change as I have little hope that 'voicing' will be a solution...

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 21 Aug 2008, 00:19

theres a good point there-

Some pianos are made to sound mellow, and if you try to make them bright the tone is just too harsh

Some pianos are made to sound bright and if you try to make them mellow they sound muddy.

Every piano can be changed to a brighter or mellower sound and within a certain parameter it works very well. Outwith these parameters it becomes pointless.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 21 Aug 2008, 03:45

this magic of voicing is much overrated in my opinion

Sigh.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 21 Aug 2008, 09:48

I'd better make this my last contribution (sorry, waffle) on the subject of voicing/toning whatever you want to call it - clearly there are very different views out there.

I'm not a technician, I'm a music teacher and pianist and I can speak only from personal experience. I've been lucky enough to have our school's Yamaha C7 worked on by one of the UK's top technicians and I've heard for myself the difference in tone it is possible to achieve in the right hands.

From time to time I'm lucky enough to host recitals by professional pianists and without exception (and unprompted) they have commented on how the tone of the C7 is much warmer and rounder than they expect from a Yamaha. That's proof enough for me.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 21 Aug 2008, 10:21

Dear Mr Openwood...

Given the number of excellent comments you make to this forum - I have a lot of respect for your observations and opinions ... however a Yamaha C7 is already a great piano. Undoubtedly working on the hammers can result in a warmer rounder tone - your post states just that... but the original question concerned a Yamaha Disklavier. Certainly working on the hammers can reduce the harshness that Hanonymouse complains about... but can the best technician make the Disklavier sound like your Yamaha C7 or a 1930 Steck?? Is there a danger of over softening the hammers to get a warm (but muddy) tone - does one pay anything for this (such as reduced dynamic range or reduced precision)??

Reading some of these posts there appears to be a message that one can buy any piano and just get it 'voiced' to sound however you want. Hanonymouse has already had one voicing that he states has removed a bit of the harshness - should he now tell the voicer that he wants it make it 10x warmer??

Anyway I look forward to the remainder of this Hanonymouse story...

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 21 Aug 2008, 10:37

- its getting a bit warm in here, i'm gonna open the window.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 21 Aug 2008, 11:43

Well, in what is REALLY my last post on the subject (honest) I'll just say that the C7 was an example, and perhaps not the best one to use. I've also had work done on a C3, a U1, and a couple of P something-or-others and I've been very pleased with the results.

I don't think I have implied that 'any' piano can be made to sound 'however you want' - if I have, then that was certainly not my intention.

All I've been trying to say is that when you're working within a tight budget it is not as straightforward as saying 'don't buy a piano whose sound you don't like'. I still believe it's perfectly justifiable to buy the best piano YOU CAN AFFORD and to some extent alter the sound to suit your personal requirements. I do object to the inference in some posts that this is somehow a sign of a careless purchase or silly expectations on the part of the punter.

Anyway, as Joseph points out it is getting a bit warm in here and I have no wish to contribute to global warming or indeed inter-member bickering so I will leave it there. On this one I guess we will just have to agree to differ.

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 21 Aug 2008, 12:11

ultimately I think voicing, regulation, wapinisation, stanwoodisation etc etc can all help to alter the tone and action of any given piano. After a while however it does become something of a case of the 'same old broom' that has had 15 new heads and 17 new handles - it is not really the same broom is it?

If you change, (perhaps even almost beyond recognition), the hammers on a given piano you can almost certainly find a tone you really like, and can certainly improve the tone of an instrument compared to how it comes with only minimal preparation direct from most manufacturers. At some point however it effectively ceases being 'a Yamaha/Steck/Kawai piano' and becomes more the product of the particular technician undertaking the work. There is nothing wrong with that, but it can involve a considerable amount of work and at times, considerable cost - so much so that a different piano altogether may have been both a better and more affordable starting point

Given the wide tonal spectrum from clear to muddy, bright to mellow etc, different manufacturers (and different models from same manufacturers) appear at different places upon that wide spectrum. Where possible it is best to sample as many different pianos as you can, and pick one that is closest to what you like best within your price range. Fortunately there are an ever growing number of reasonably priced instruments such that most budgets can find an instrument 'at the point in the tone spectrum' that they both like and can afford. It does mean you have to shop around however, but as somebody pointed out to me, it is often better to make a 500 mile around trip before purchasing a piano costing perhaps several thousand pounds, than to simply limit oneself to what is available on the doorstep....

athomik · Post by **athomik** » 21 Aug 2008, 16:32

crispin wrote:Dear Mr Openwood...
... but the original question concerned a Yamaha Disklavier. Certainly working on the hammers can reduce the harshness that Hanonymouse complains about... but can the best technician make the Disklavier sound like your Yamaha C7 or a 1930 Steck?? ...

As a piano, a Disklavier is exactly the same as as it's equivalent acoustic model, which means that anything which works on a C7, will also work on a DC7 Disklavier. Similarly, if you can voice a U1 (or in this case, a YUS1A) to your satisfaction, there is no reason why it can't be done to a DYUS1A.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 21 Aug 2008, 20:11

i think we're basically all singing from the same hymn sheet on the subject.

Now, I must get the new hammers on my bluthner toned because at the moment it sounds a bit like HELLO I'VE GOT NEW HAMMERS AND I WANT TO SHOUT AT YOU. Where as I want that nice sound that suits schubert lieder! They're Abel hammers made to the old Bluthner pattern so it will turn out all right in the end.