Zimmermann Z1/Seiller Konsole 122/Sauter 120
Any advice on which piano to choose... all are a similar price ~ 8500 euros in France.. which is ~ 6750 british pounds.
All are new - we will see all three this weekend at the same dealer.
My preference is for the Zimmermann Z1 - for no good reason... but my question is : are there any obvious differences between these three that should exclude it from consideration?
Thanks for any words of wisdom
Zimmermann Z1/Seiller Konsole 122/Sauter 120
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
I have played a Zimmerman Z1 and found it to be a lovely piano. I have not played a Seiler or a Sauter, though I am strongly considering a Sauter M-Line 130 on my list of 'pianos to try before I buy' as I very much like the recordings I have heard of Sauter instruments.
Sauter, although less well known here, appear to have an excellent reputation for manufacturing extremely well made instruments. The Sauter also has a very characteristic 'pure' sounding tone, which I guess people either love or hate. Certainly classy pianos in any case. They have recently been bumped up into the Tier 1 of Larry Fine's Piano Book ratings if you put any store by such things....
Seiler are again less well known but produce fine instruments from what I can gather. I am told Seiler's have a very clean tone, perhaps cold sounding to some ears?
Zimmerman are produced as a second line below the Academy and C.Bechstein line. They have a more mellow, warmer tone. Other commentators here have referred to the Z1 as being about 80% of the quality of a Bechstein upright, for about 50% of the price, and as such they are very good value.
The Zimmerman will probably have the best residual value as they are better known.
Personally I would probably pick either the Sauter or Zimmerman but play them all and decide which one you like best as they are all extremely classy instruments.
Sauter, although less well known here, appear to have an excellent reputation for manufacturing extremely well made instruments. The Sauter also has a very characteristic 'pure' sounding tone, which I guess people either love or hate. Certainly classy pianos in any case. They have recently been bumped up into the Tier 1 of Larry Fine's Piano Book ratings if you put any store by such things....
Seiler are again less well known but produce fine instruments from what I can gather. I am told Seiler's have a very clean tone, perhaps cold sounding to some ears?
Zimmerman are produced as a second line below the Academy and C.Bechstein line. They have a more mellow, warmer tone. Other commentators here have referred to the Z1 as being about 80% of the quality of a Bechstein upright, for about 50% of the price, and as such they are very good value.
The Zimmerman will probably have the best residual value as they are better known.
Personally I would probably pick either the Sauter or Zimmerman but play them all and decide which one you like best as they are all extremely classy instruments.
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Gill the Piano
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I think the Sauter is an extraordinary piano. The clarity throughout the range, the balance of bass to treble and complexity of sound put it not only in the top league of pianos but almost in a league of its own.
The repetition is also unrivalled- they also look stunning. The masterclass 122 and 130 have brass damper barrels and hardwood hammer cores -now that's classy!
The repetition is also unrivalled- they also look stunning. The masterclass 122 and 130 have brass damper barrels and hardwood hammer cores -now that's classy!
Just to give a bit more info... this piano is for my son - who has made excellent progress on a small Rosler - made before the Wall came down. However this piano has done its duty and now I believe starts to limit his progress. The 'touch' is very heavy, the dynamic range of sound is limited and the tone is somewhat dull. So we start looking for something better.... but at least the heavy touch has developed a very good articulation (at least this is what the French call it) in my son - but now it is time to further develop his 'touch'. He certainly plays with more fluidity and musically on the pianos at the conservatoire...
Probably the best value for money nowadays, imho, is the Yamaha - unfortunately his teacher was negative about the sound of Asian pianos - and my son says he finds the 'touch' too light. His teacher also suggested looking for a manufacturer that also produces a second string of pianos that have the same mechanism - but without the high price of the original manufacturer... After some research - Bechstein/Zimmermann fits that description. I am not sure about Steinway/Boston: is the Boston more a Steinway or a Kawai with its mechanism?
Anyway - we visited a dealer last weekend - that had many Bechsteins, a Zimmermann Z1 and Z3, some Schimmels, many Yamahas... also had some Tcheque pianos with a brand name that I can not remember. Also had a line called 'May by Schimmel' which was a piano made in China. Personally I find it hard to describe the differences in tone, etc. Certainly the Z1 had a fuller tone and maybe a more powerful bass than the Z3.... The Chinese made 'May by Schimmel' was bad - truly bad.... but between the Bechsteins, Zimmermann and Schimmels there was not such a difference that one could eliminate any of the models... however the Zimmermann was the cheapest among that group and certainly a very excellent piano - both regarding the tone and the feel of the keyboard. In my opinion : if anything I found the tone of the Zimmermann Z1 the most pleasing among them - even compared to the Bechstein concert 8... but really it is too subjective an evaluation.
Looking further afield we have found another dealer - that has these three pianos listed above at the same price... hence the question. Unfortunately I believe this Sauter is without this R2 mechanism.. the next model up - the 122 - has it, but that is substantially more costly (an extra 2000 euro or so). However they do have many of the Sauter range in stock - so we will look at this aspect. The Sauter Masterclass is yet another jump in price.
Yes - I will post the outcome ... but in the end it is such a subjective thing... but it also essential to get a piano one loves.... I suspect that this will be the Z1 but I keep an open mind
Probably the best value for money nowadays, imho, is the Yamaha - unfortunately his teacher was negative about the sound of Asian pianos - and my son says he finds the 'touch' too light. His teacher also suggested looking for a manufacturer that also produces a second string of pianos that have the same mechanism - but without the high price of the original manufacturer... After some research - Bechstein/Zimmermann fits that description. I am not sure about Steinway/Boston: is the Boston more a Steinway or a Kawai with its mechanism?
Anyway - we visited a dealer last weekend - that had many Bechsteins, a Zimmermann Z1 and Z3, some Schimmels, many Yamahas... also had some Tcheque pianos with a brand name that I can not remember. Also had a line called 'May by Schimmel' which was a piano made in China. Personally I find it hard to describe the differences in tone, etc. Certainly the Z1 had a fuller tone and maybe a more powerful bass than the Z3.... The Chinese made 'May by Schimmel' was bad - truly bad.... but between the Bechsteins, Zimmermann and Schimmels there was not such a difference that one could eliminate any of the models... however the Zimmermann was the cheapest among that group and certainly a very excellent piano - both regarding the tone and the feel of the keyboard. In my opinion : if anything I found the tone of the Zimmermann Z1 the most pleasing among them - even compared to the Bechstein concert 8... but really it is too subjective an evaluation.
Looking further afield we have found another dealer - that has these three pianos listed above at the same price... hence the question. Unfortunately I believe this Sauter is without this R2 mechanism.. the next model up - the 122 - has it, but that is substantially more costly (an extra 2000 euro or so). However they do have many of the Sauter range in stock - so we will look at this aspect. The Sauter Masterclass is yet another jump in price.
Yes - I will post the outcome ... but in the end it is such a subjective thing... but it also essential to get a piano one loves.... I suspect that this will be the Z1 but I keep an open mind
Then his teacher has played too few Yamahs to be a decent judge. Yamaha pianos of the right type are superb, it's just that often the dealer network can let them down by selling them as an "appliance" rather than a musical instrument, and provide less preparation than they need to sound optimum. If the same scant attention was given to a Zimmerman, Sauter or even Bechstein and Blüthner by the dealer, they'd never sell a single one, since all the 'top' makes perform relatively poorly 'out of the box'.crispin wrote:
Probably the best value for money nowadays, imho, is the Yamaha - unfortunately his teacher was negative about the sound of Asian pianos - and my son says he finds the 'touch' too light. His teacher also suggested looking for a manufacturer that also produces a second string of pianos that have the same mechanism - but without the high price of the original manufacturer... After some research - Bechstein/Zimmermann fits that description. I am not sure about Steinway/Boston: is the Boston more a Steinway or a Kawai with its mechanism?
You have hit the nail on the head with the Zimmermann and standard Bechstein. The pianos are virtually identical, and only a fool would pay more for the Bechstein. The C.Bechstein range are better instruments, but at a much higher (and uncompetitive) price. The Z1 represents the best value out of your shortlist. Watch out for a standard of build in the Seiler upright that in places looks decidedly 'home-made'. Very disappointing for such a prestigious piano.
Schimmels are decent but nothing special, so don't expect much from a Chinese built model. The Vogel by Schimmel offers far better value than the Schimmel and is the only decent piano to emerge from Poland ever. EVER. Don't buy a Czech piano of any description, nor an Irmler which is marketed by Blüthner. These are either standard Chinese Pearl-River or nasty Polish items rebadged and fitted to an inflated price tag.
As you say it's an objective thing, so try as many as you can and be influenced by your own preference more than anything anyone tries to tell you.... And that includes us! It's your money and you'll have to live with what you buy!
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TheBritishPianist
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- Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 15:50
- Location: Nottingham, UK
I agree with A440. A friend of mine has one of these Sauter pianos, and it sounds absoloutly fantastic!
As with many though, I suppose price is the deciding factor.
As with many though, I suppose price is the deciding factor.
www.markinnottingham.blogspot.com
My piano blog - I talk about everything piano related! Take a look......
My piano blog - I talk about everything piano related! Take a look......
You may find that the touch of the Sauter pianos suits your son's playing, as I have seen them described as having a heavier touch (albeit extremely responsive) than many other instruments. Sauter's are also reputed to have a very broad tonal palette and capable of extreme pianissimo playing...
in terms of actions, the R2 is supposed to be very quick, but the 'standard' action is also supposed to be highly responsive.
in terms of actions, the R2 is supposed to be very quick, but the 'standard' action is also supposed to be highly responsive.
We visited - and were very disappointed with the Zimmermann Z1 - the tone was very uninteresting... the salesman said that it had only come in that week and needed to be worked on... and we should go back next week ... however we had driven 2 hours to get there so to come back was not a too interesting option. The Sauter was a fine piano ... however the case was in yew and cherry wood .. while we wanted standard shiny black... The Seiler was OK .. but nothing special - one couldn't get too excited about the tone .. clear but a a bit cold as someone has already said.. however he also had quite a range of Bechsteins... and the Academy 124 had everything going for it - precise touch and singing clear tone - and more importantly - my son really really liked it - and this was the deciding point.... in the end we paid 9600 euros for this ~7700 GBpounds)... about 1000 more euros than we were prepared to pay for the Zimmermann ..... more than I had originally intended but I am very happy with this piano.
In the end we did find a Sauter dealer hidden down a side street... and indeed the Sauter range is interesting... he had a 122 M-Line that had been damaged when he delivered it (small hole in the case - that he had repaired)... The build of this instrument was impeccable... but even with the reduction due to this repaired hole (that in reality no one would notice) it was still 3000 euros more than what we paid for the Bechstein academy. A Sauter that had a particulary interesting tone was a 122 in this 'Rondo' style by Peter Maly in shiny black... it also looked very good and the build was impeccable.. it was also out of our price range...
In the end - one wonders how different the Zimmerman Z1 and the Bechstein A124 would sound if both were worked on... mechanically they are similar - but the Bechstein does use different materials with a different construction and has a silverline Renner mechanics - rather than the standard Renner... do this change the sound and feel of the piano?
Or if all pianos are slightly different and some sound better (to some people) than others...
In the end we did find a Sauter dealer hidden down a side street... and indeed the Sauter range is interesting... he had a 122 M-Line that had been damaged when he delivered it (small hole in the case - that he had repaired)... The build of this instrument was impeccable... but even with the reduction due to this repaired hole (that in reality no one would notice) it was still 3000 euros more than what we paid for the Bechstein academy. A Sauter that had a particulary interesting tone was a 122 in this 'Rondo' style by Peter Maly in shiny black... it also looked very good and the build was impeccable.. it was also out of our price range...
In the end - one wonders how different the Zimmerman Z1 and the Bechstein A124 would sound if both were worked on... mechanically they are similar - but the Bechstein does use different materials with a different construction and has a silverline Renner mechanics - rather than the standard Renner... do this change the sound and feel of the piano?
Or if all pianos are slightly different and some sound better (to some people) than others...
In my experience the Academy 124cm and Zimmermann Z1 are too similar to be treated as different pianos. In the UK at least, the actions are both identical "Silverline" Bechstein spec Renners.
So all that extra cash is down to preparation......
And the Sauter Rondo may look cool in 2008, but it'll look like a pile of junk when tastes change in a few years down the line. Or maybe even tomorrow. Well avoided if you ask me.
So all that extra cash is down to preparation......
And the Sauter Rondo may look cool in 2008, but it'll look like a pile of junk when tastes change in a few years down the line. Or maybe even tomorrow. Well avoided if you ask me.
Congratulations Crispin - sounds like you found the perfect piano for your son 
Thank you for the info on the Sauters you found - I am considering an Mline 130 but have yet to find one to play. I am reassured by your comments about build quality on Sauter pianos but will also be adding the Bechstein academy on my 'try' list
Post some pics when your piano arrives perhaps? Always nice to see the bits and pieces of a lovely shiny new instrument
Thank you for the info on the Sauters you found - I am considering an Mline 130 but have yet to find one to play. I am reassured by your comments about build quality on Sauter pianos but will also be adding the Bechstein academy on my 'try' list
Post some pics when your piano arrives perhaps? Always nice to see the bits and pieces of a lovely shiny new instrument
Hi Genaa! The Ragazza in black is a superb instrument and falls well within the budget of most buyers seeking a hand-built german piano. As for the shape of the 'rondo' I think it's understated and timeless. It oozes quality and is a design classic (in my humble...).
I think the difference between most makers 'contemporary' or 'art-case' pianos is they always add something to the shape to change it (the rather clumsy Yamaha Radius springs to mind) whereas what Sauter have done is pair down the shape to its essentials.
Here's a picture of it see what you think. You can't please all the people all the time...
http://www.headingley-pianos.co.uk/saut ... l#rondopic
To be truely loved, however,the rondo needs to be played.
I think the difference between most makers 'contemporary' or 'art-case' pianos is they always add something to the shape to change it (the rather clumsy Yamaha Radius springs to mind) whereas what Sauter have done is pair down the shape to its essentials.
Here's a picture of it see what you think. You can't please all the people all the time...
http://www.headingley-pianos.co.uk/saut ... l#rondopic
To be truely loved, however,the rondo needs to be played.
Personally I found the Rondo a very attractive item... whether this would be true in 5 years time - who can say - but in my case I would suspect the answer would be yes. Regarding the sound - I agree with A440 ... it was a much more interesting sound than other pianos and had a great dynamic range. The sounding board is made with some special Italian wood -and had its own serial number.
However going back to my disappointment with the Zimmermann Z1 for its lack of interesting tone compared to a Zimmerman the previouys week at a dealer in Switzerland. As I said - the dealer claimed that it had only arrived that week and needed setting up. However there was also a Bechstein Academy grand piano that had also just arrived. The tone of this was warm and full and it played exquisitely. Why did this piano not need 'setting up'? Are the Bechstein Academy set up by Bechstein - while the Zimmermann's are not. How can they do quality control of the musicality of the piano without doing some basic 'voicing'?
Looking at the Bechstein web site - I find that in the US the Bechstein Academy uprights completely match the Zimmermann series in Europe. The Zimmermann line is not available in the US... nor is any model that over here is called the Bechstein Academy 124. I also find that the Zimmermann's final completion is done in Berlin - while the Bechstein's Academy is done at Seifhennendorf.
From all this I conclude that Bechstein has made some big confusion with this Academy line - with the Zimmermann line. That quality control of the Zimmermann line, in my mind, should be viewed with a question mark. As a last remark - the dealer also said that he had to return a Bechstein academy grand piano as he found the tone unacceptable (so maybe quality control is suspect in general).
I guess the bottom line is: Make sure you listen to the piano you buy (do not let them supply you with one from some warehouse)... and when you find one you are really happy with - go for it and luckily for me I could dig deep into my pocket for one that matched my son's dreams.... and he is dreaming of it (it will be delivered on Thursday ':D')
As yet another point of interest (well, interest for me).. the Sauters on display at the Bechstein dealer all had a heavier touch than the Bechstein's - not unpleasant but clearly heavier. At the dealer dealing with Sauters, the touch was very light on the M-Line and the Rondo - actually too light, in my opinion.... why should this be? At this place the dealer was quite clearly 'a fiddler' to a high degree - he had many pianos opened up and being fiddled with.
I am not sure what to make of all this - but I have learned a lot about this subjective science (by profession I am an objective physicist) from reading this forum - many thanks to you that post so many helpful and interesting comments.
However going back to my disappointment with the Zimmermann Z1 for its lack of interesting tone compared to a Zimmerman the previouys week at a dealer in Switzerland. As I said - the dealer claimed that it had only arrived that week and needed setting up. However there was also a Bechstein Academy grand piano that had also just arrived. The tone of this was warm and full and it played exquisitely. Why did this piano not need 'setting up'? Are the Bechstein Academy set up by Bechstein - while the Zimmermann's are not. How can they do quality control of the musicality of the piano without doing some basic 'voicing'?
Looking at the Bechstein web site - I find that in the US the Bechstein Academy uprights completely match the Zimmermann series in Europe. The Zimmermann line is not available in the US... nor is any model that over here is called the Bechstein Academy 124. I also find that the Zimmermann's final completion is done in Berlin - while the Bechstein's Academy is done at Seifhennendorf.
From all this I conclude that Bechstein has made some big confusion with this Academy line - with the Zimmermann line. That quality control of the Zimmermann line, in my mind, should be viewed with a question mark. As a last remark - the dealer also said that he had to return a Bechstein academy grand piano as he found the tone unacceptable (so maybe quality control is suspect in general).
I guess the bottom line is: Make sure you listen to the piano you buy (do not let them supply you with one from some warehouse)... and when you find one you are really happy with - go for it and luckily for me I could dig deep into my pocket for one that matched my son's dreams.... and he is dreaming of it (it will be delivered on Thursday ':D')
As yet another point of interest (well, interest for me).. the Sauters on display at the Bechstein dealer all had a heavier touch than the Bechstein's - not unpleasant but clearly heavier. At the dealer dealing with Sauters, the touch was very light on the M-Line and the Rondo - actually too light, in my opinion.... why should this be? At this place the dealer was quite clearly 'a fiddler' to a high degree - he had many pianos opened up and being fiddled with.
I am not sure what to make of all this - but I have learned a lot about this subjective science (by profession I am an objective physicist) from reading this forum - many thanks to you that post so many helpful and interesting comments.
Hi Folks,
Thanks for the further advice re: the Sauters... I am planning to head up to Headingley very soon to try the instruments they have in stock, its just a shame that there is not an Masterclass 130 in the country to try as that is the one I am heavily considering
Is good to receive further confirmations of the build quality of the Sauter range however as it all adds to my confidence in the brand should I have to either buy a Masterclass 130 sight-unseen or visit the factory in Spaichingen to try the couple they currently have there.
Thanks for the further advice re: the Sauters... I am planning to head up to Headingley very soon to try the instruments they have in stock, its just a shame that there is not an Masterclass 130 in the country to try as that is the one I am heavily considering
Is good to receive further confirmations of the build quality of the Sauter range however as it all adds to my confidence in the brand should I have to either buy a Masterclass 130 sight-unseen or visit the factory in Spaichingen to try the couple they currently have there.
As requested - you can see photos of the piano at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28728922@N03/
After some study I conclude that this Bechstein Academy 124 is closer to the C.Bechstein Classic 124 than the Zimmermann Z1. I suspect that the frame and sounding board of this Academy model is identical to the C.Bechstein classic .. and maybe the mechanism is different. Note that the hammer heads are made of walnut (just like most C.Bechstein uprights) and not silver birch as used in the Zimmermann. I am sure that I am not expert enough to tell the difference in sound/tone or the touch if the heads are in walnut or silver birch ... but it all points to the fact that the European Bechstein Academy uprights are similar to the standard C.Bechstein line - but made and sold at a substantially lower price. Maybe when you say that the Zimmerman is 80% Bechstein piano at 50% price.. the academy is 95% Bechstein at 65% of the price.
Anyway we are overjoyed with the sound and touch of this piano - as well as the apparent quality of the build... and end up by strongly recommending this piano.
Genaa : do you really want to buy a piano - sight unseen !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28728922@N03/
After some study I conclude that this Bechstein Academy 124 is closer to the C.Bechstein Classic 124 than the Zimmermann Z1. I suspect that the frame and sounding board of this Academy model is identical to the C.Bechstein classic .. and maybe the mechanism is different. Note that the hammer heads are made of walnut (just like most C.Bechstein uprights) and not silver birch as used in the Zimmermann. I am sure that I am not expert enough to tell the difference in sound/tone or the touch if the heads are in walnut or silver birch ... but it all points to the fact that the European Bechstein Academy uprights are similar to the standard C.Bechstein line - but made and sold at a substantially lower price. Maybe when you say that the Zimmerman is 80% Bechstein piano at 50% price.. the academy is 95% Bechstein at 65% of the price.
Anyway we are overjoyed with the sound and touch of this piano - as well as the apparent quality of the build... and end up by strongly recommending this piano.
Genaa : do you really want to buy a piano - sight unseen !
Amen to the latter comment.crispin wrote:
From all this I conclude that Bechstein has made some big confusion with this Academy line - with the Zimmermann line. That quality control of the Zimmermann line, in my mind, should be viewed with a question mark. As a last remark - the dealer also said that he had to return a Bechstein academy grand piano as he found the tone unacceptable (so maybe quality control is suspect in general).
I guess the bottom line is: Make sure you listen to the piano you buy (do not let them supply you with one from some warehouse)...
Bechstein and Zimmermann vary considerably, so dealer prep is very important. it's certainly possible to prepare a Zimmermann to sound and play better than a badly set-up Bechstein of similar size, so I think some of your decision has been influenced by this.
Congratulations in finding a piano that you are happy with. This is the most important thing of all!
Obviously I am totally influenced by this... The question however is: should these pianos that are at the high price end of the range come out of the factory badly set-up? Surely there should be some basic voicing done by the manufacturer - they are after all selling an expensive musical instrument - not a washing machine. Additionally - although the tone of the piano can be changed by working on the piano heads - there are other things in the piano that makes it 'sing' or alternatively sound ordinary (such as the construction of the sound board, the coupling of the soundboard to the strings.... etc).Bechstein and Zimmermann vary considerably, so dealer prep is very important. it's certainly possible to prepare a Zimmermann to sound and play better than a badly set-up Bechstein of similar size, so I think some of your decision has been influenced by this.
In this particular case I believe the market plan of the dealer was to have the lowest prices in France and try to sell as many pianos as possible. Given this I suspect he does the minimum of setting up of the pianos - and maybe this is a good thing given that sticking pins into the hammer heads seems somewhat irreversible - I would only allow someone who I really trust to voice a piano that I own.
My personal view - after reading various articles - is that it seems that Bechstein are producing these 'cheaper' pianos by spending less time doing the final quality control in the factory - and there is a certain percentage of pianos that are going out to the dealers that are not up to the standard. For this particular Zimmermann Z1, I suspect that the sound board had some problem - but this is just a guess by the uneducated (ie me). The Bechstein Academy grand piano, also fresh out of the factory, sang like a lark....
I am very happy to have a piano that sings and that has the Bechstein touch ... the dealer will retune it in 3 months time - but after that my regular tuner will take over.