Hi Folks,
As you may be aware from an earlier post, my piano was damaged in a plumbing-related flood.
We have now had a second assessment undertaken by a restoration firm based in Reading. They have suggested that they piano could be repaired by restringing, damper felt replacement and hammer re-facing. My technician is not of the same view and very much feels the issue lies with the soundboard/bass bridge area.
Whilst I am in the process of sourcing a third opinion I am faced with a difficult decision. The insurance company are currently indicating they will only pay for repairs rather than a replacement instrument if the view is that the instrument can be repaired. The problem is that the instrument is not yet 2 years old and therefore has the remainder of a 10 year owner transferable warranty (its a Kawai K6-AS), however any repair work undertaken as extensive as restringing, is surely going to void any remaining warranty I have and whilst the restorer may put a 5 year warranty on their work, the piano would still not have its Kawai warranty cover upto 2016 as otherwise expected.
I am concerned this will have a significant impact on the valuation of the instrument regarding any future sale towards an upgrade instrument as surely any potential buyer within that initial 10 year period would expect to be able to buy an instrument under warranty, or pay a much cheaper price otherwise.
I am deeply unhappy at the thought of supposedly having an insured instrument which can only be repaired at the expense of decimating its value, not least given that the somewhat scattergun approach of the repairs suggested may do nothing to actually address the cause of the problem, and may take a long time to settle afterwards before any other issues become apparent.
Is it unreasonable to expect to have my insurance company provide something of equal quality AND value by way of a solution?
I would welcome any advice people can offer as am quickly getting lost in an insurance wrangle.
Cheers,
warranty quandary
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
-
Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: 30 May 2003, 20:42
- Location: Lanc's
- Contact:
Was the bottom of the piano standing in water
Did the soundboard and bridge get wet if it did that can cause long term problems insurance company's go for the option that will cost them less The RRP is £6099.00
if the soundboard did not get wet did the keys, did the hemmers, strings if so then
you need
in most workshops you are looking at 8 to 10K if the job is to be done well so it would be cheaper to replace talk to Cheltenham Piano Centre they specialize in water Damaged Pianos
Did the soundboard and bridge get wet if it did that can cause long term problems insurance company's go for the option that will cost them less The RRP is £6099.00
if the soundboard did not get wet did the keys, did the hemmers, strings if so then
you need
- New string and pins
New dampers
New hammers (not refacing ) and pos new butts
New keys and Keyframe (not drying out )
As the keybed is MDF a new Keybed that normally means re polishing
in most workshops you are looking at 8 to 10K if the job is to be done well so it would be cheaper to replace talk to Cheltenham Piano Centre they specialize in water Damaged Pianos
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
Water and pianos don't mix.
Your technician has said that the piano has been totalled, and he stands to make nothing by saying so. The restoration company has a vested interest in declaring that repair is possible because they will gain the business. The insurance company needs to understand that if the piano has been repaired by any person other than Kawai or one of its agents, the warranty will be null and void. This will not compensate you for your loss.
Was the restoration company one recommended by your insurance company? If so, suspect shady dealings. A number of years ago, I declared a grand piano that I inspected a write-off after several gallons of hot water from a central heating system made contact with it. I suggested a replacement costing around 10K. The loss adjuster had other ideas however. His 'pet' restorer was invited to quote for repair, and came up with a figure of 13K. In spite of my protestations that the piano could never be properly repaired, the insurance company pressed ahead with their loss adjuster's suggestion and 13K lighter, they returned the piano. Within weeks the lid developed a split (which the repairer duly repaired) and the soundboard dropped, leaving the thing sounding dull and lifeless. The owner is now left with a poor sounding but outwardly very glossy piano and the insurance company will give them no further compensation. Of course the repair had a 'warranty' which was worthless since the restorer can find no fault with the piano.
One wonders how much the loss adjuster received for his own back pocket too.
As Barrie points out, if the soundboard has been affected, the piano should be written off.
Your technician has said that the piano has been totalled, and he stands to make nothing by saying so. The restoration company has a vested interest in declaring that repair is possible because they will gain the business. The insurance company needs to understand that if the piano has been repaired by any person other than Kawai or one of its agents, the warranty will be null and void. This will not compensate you for your loss.
Was the restoration company one recommended by your insurance company? If so, suspect shady dealings. A number of years ago, I declared a grand piano that I inspected a write-off after several gallons of hot water from a central heating system made contact with it. I suggested a replacement costing around 10K. The loss adjuster had other ideas however. His 'pet' restorer was invited to quote for repair, and came up with a figure of 13K. In spite of my protestations that the piano could never be properly repaired, the insurance company pressed ahead with their loss adjuster's suggestion and 13K lighter, they returned the piano. Within weeks the lid developed a split (which the repairer duly repaired) and the soundboard dropped, leaving the thing sounding dull and lifeless. The owner is now left with a poor sounding but outwardly very glossy piano and the insurance company will give them no further compensation. Of course the repair had a 'warranty' which was worthless since the restorer can find no fault with the piano.
One wonders how much the loss adjuster received for his own back pocket too.
As Barrie points out, if the soundboard has been affected, the piano should be written off.
Hey guys,
thanks for the affirmation. I am so concerned about being 'done over' here!!
The piano itself did not stand in water at all but rather was subjected to massive humidity swing before the movers could come and collect it. I raised concerns with the people placing the dehumidifiers at the time regarding whether the piano could survive such a swing, only to be told by the so-called 'experts' that 'wood will be fine down to 10-12% humidity'.... I specifically questioned this with regards the soundboard and was told not to worry - yeah right!!
So..... nothing got wet directly - which makes me even more suspicious of the 'restorers' quote of needing restringing, new dampers etc... the area of the piano nearest the wet floor etc was the bass end of the piano and it is here that the instrument shows greatest deterioration of tone etc - all of which makes me further suspect my technician is correct to question the soundboard/bass bridge relationship...
I am going to have to get a third opinion sorted out for sure because insurers are still going by what the firm they said recommend (despite their not having removed the bottom panel and examining the bass bridge and soundboard AT ALL!!).
btw Barrie - mine is the model with sostenuto pedal which I think RRP for is £6,799 - can anyone else confirm - that is the only quoted price I have seen so far , from Sheargold's website.
Cheers folks
thanks for the affirmation. I am so concerned about being 'done over' here!!
The piano itself did not stand in water at all but rather was subjected to massive humidity swing before the movers could come and collect it. I raised concerns with the people placing the dehumidifiers at the time regarding whether the piano could survive such a swing, only to be told by the so-called 'experts' that 'wood will be fine down to 10-12% humidity'.... I specifically questioned this with regards the soundboard and was told not to worry - yeah right!!
So..... nothing got wet directly - which makes me even more suspicious of the 'restorers' quote of needing restringing, new dampers etc... the area of the piano nearest the wet floor etc was the bass end of the piano and it is here that the instrument shows greatest deterioration of tone etc - all of which makes me further suspect my technician is correct to question the soundboard/bass bridge relationship...
I am going to have to get a third opinion sorted out for sure because insurers are still going by what the firm they said recommend (despite their not having removed the bottom panel and examining the bass bridge and soundboard AT ALL!!).
btw Barrie - mine is the model with sostenuto pedal which I think RRP for is £6,799 - can anyone else confirm - that is the only quoted price I have seen so far , from Sheargold's website.
Cheers folks
-
Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: 30 May 2003, 20:42
- Location: Lanc's
- Contact:
Three problem occur with high humidity, then a big artificial swing down
Hammers take in water and swell distorting the shape of the hammer result poor tone. reshaping can help but it is never the same
Wrestplank even on laminated planks if they take in quite a lot of water they swell the fibres around the tuning pin have nowhere to go so they get crushed when the Wrestplank is dried out to its normal state the pins will be not as tight can result in tuning instability
Soundboard excessive humidity will cause compression ridges in the board because of the low humidity in modern pianos like the Wrestplank the wood has little room for expansion this can affect the belly bars and the bridges joints having a dulling effect drying out the piano can result in splits in the soundboard
The problem with the former and the latter the deterioration in sound quality is first observed by you and then by your normal tuner. It will not be noticed by visiting tuners. However, in your case because the piano is relatively new and if they are familiar with that model they should spot it
As I said in my last post you need to contact some one like Cheltenham Piano Centre who tend to go for replace than renew in most cases, as they understand the long term effects of moisture in pianos.
I would also seek the advise of an independent insurance accessors that can advise on your claim not a piano tuner but an expert on insurance claim their costs can be claimed back form your insurance company in most cases
What insurance company's don't like are reports from experts with lots of letters after their name because if it goes to arbitration they will have to get a expert with just as many if not more to dispute and that can cost them
Barrie,
Hammers take in water and swell distorting the shape of the hammer result poor tone. reshaping can help but it is never the same
Wrestplank even on laminated planks if they take in quite a lot of water they swell the fibres around the tuning pin have nowhere to go so they get crushed when the Wrestplank is dried out to its normal state the pins will be not as tight can result in tuning instability
Soundboard excessive humidity will cause compression ridges in the board because of the low humidity in modern pianos like the Wrestplank the wood has little room for expansion this can affect the belly bars and the bridges joints having a dulling effect drying out the piano can result in splits in the soundboard
The problem with the former and the latter the deterioration in sound quality is first observed by you and then by your normal tuner. It will not be noticed by visiting tuners. However, in your case because the piano is relatively new and if they are familiar with that model they should spot it
As I said in my last post you need to contact some one like Cheltenham Piano Centre who tend to go for replace than renew in most cases, as they understand the long term effects of moisture in pianos.
I would also seek the advise of an independent insurance accessors that can advise on your claim not a piano tuner but an expert on insurance claim their costs can be claimed back form your insurance company in most cases
What insurance company's don't like are reports from experts with lots of letters after their name because if it goes to arbitration they will have to get a expert with just as many if not more to dispute and that can cost them
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
Cheers Barrie,
Will see what I can do regarding third opinion sources and will certainly look up Cheltenham pianos.
My tech is an accredited member of I.M.I.T. so if they want someone 'higher' in that organisation then that leaves about 2 people at Fellow status anywhere near me, one of which is the sales director of Bluthner!
Will see what I can do regarding third opinion sources and will certainly look up Cheltenham pianos.
My tech is an accredited member of I.M.I.T. so if they want someone 'higher' in that organisation then that leaves about 2 people at Fellow status anywhere near me, one of which is the sales director of Bluthner!
-
Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: 30 May 2003, 20:42
- Location: Lanc's
- Contact:
has he done a detailed report on why you need to change the pianogenaa wrote:Cheers Barrie,
Will see what I can do regarding third opinion sources and will certainly look up Cheltenham pianos.
My tech is an accredited member of I.M.I.T. so if they want someone 'higher' in that organisation then that leaves about 2 people at Fellow status anywhere near me, one of which is the sales director of Bluthner!
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
warranty
You've had good advice here above
Depending on your insurance cover, go for a replacement.Anything less, if you settle, you will sign a form of disclaimer absolving the insurers of any further liability.
In one/two/three years the whole piano may go twang and then you can bin it.
In my career I have had several clients who have settled but at least 3 have subsequently lost their piano.
The Insurance Company will be hard put to find one of us " experts" who will guarantee there will be no future problems
vernon
Depending on your insurance cover, go for a replacement.Anything less, if you settle, you will sign a form of disclaimer absolving the insurers of any further liability.
In one/two/three years the whole piano may go twang and then you can bin it.
In my career I have had several clients who have settled but at least 3 have subsequently lost their piano.
The Insurance Company will be hard put to find one of us " experts" who will guarantee there will be no future problems
vernon
In my case, the piano stood in a cold wet room for about 4 - 5 days, and although there was no direct water contact the wall behind the piano got so wet the wallpaper was coming off.
When the building repairer brought in their dehmidifiers, they drew about a litre of water every 2 hours, for about two weeks.
I contacted the ins. co. and said that I would have it tuned, and see what happened.
I waited three months and had the piano tuned, then another three months, and it became obvious it was not holding its tune.
In the end it was nearly a year before I said that I would get a report for a replacement.
In my case, the flood was caused by a faulty central heating boilder (8 months old) and the ins. co. will sue the boiler manufacturer for their outgoings, so they are probably less worried about the cost.
When the building repairer brought in their dehmidifiers, they drew about a litre of water every 2 hours, for about two weeks.
I contacted the ins. co. and said that I would have it tuned, and see what happened.
I waited three months and had the piano tuned, then another three months, and it became obvious it was not holding its tune.
In the end it was nearly a year before I said that I would get a report for a replacement.
In my case, the flood was caused by a faulty central heating boilder (8 months old) and the ins. co. will sue the boiler manufacturer for their outgoings, so they are probably less worried about the cost.