I'm having doubts about my new Yamaha Disklavier ...

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 13 May 2008, 15:30

I used to be an accomplished pianist (ARCM) but hadn't touched a piano for decades. Having recently moved house and with some time to devote to a hobby, I decided to buy myself a piano as a gift. I'd seen adverts for Yamaha Disklaviers and I thought a computer-assisted instrument might help me recover my former technique and learn new pieces, and I was also interested in using the instrument to add synthesizer techniques to my repertoire.

Following the advice of your contributors, I bought a new Yamaha DYUS1A from a reputable dealer, having tried several pianos in their showroom. I was initially very pleased with my purchase - despite my rather mediocre abilities I really enjoyed playing the piano again after all those years, and experimenting with the Disklavier features was fun.

However, after a month of daily piano practice, my former pianism (fingers, brain and ears!) is starting to function properly again and I'm having doubts about the wisdom of my choice.

Perhaps it's too soon to decide, but I don't think the computer-assistance features will ever be much use to me in terms of helping me re-develop my technique and learn new pieces. The synthesizer features are quite limited so if I wanted to explore that territory I should probably buy a proper synthesizer (with pitch benders etc). The silent piano capability might be useful one day, but at the moment my playing doesn't disturb any neighbours. And to be honest, the computer interface is very slow and cumbersome by modern standards. All in all, my initial impression is that the Disklavier features are more relevant for beginners and piano enthusiasts interested in expensive toys, or for producing background muzak in hotel lobbies (from the relentlessly cheesy music which populates Yamaha's Dislavier disk catalogue), rather than for someone like myself with pretensions to playing 'serious' piano music to a high standard. So it seems I might have paid for features that I don't really have much need for at present - but OK, I can live with that, maybe I will find a use for them eventually.

What worries me is that the Disklavier features might be detracting from the tone and functioning of the piano - my 'ear' has improved since I tried out the pianos in the showroom and I can appreciate the sound qualities better. Is it just my lack of practice, or is the tone and/or touch rather uneven throughout the instrument - presumably the supplier voiced the instrument properly before delivery? One or two of the notes seem to cause a slight buzzing resonance with something inside the piano - or am I just imagining it? The sustaining pedal squeaks slightly as well - does it need readjustment? I also find the touch very heavy, I thought I would get used to that quite quickly but I haven't. And it seems unexpectedly difficult to play softly. Finally, the bass register is disappointingly thin and just sounds harsh if I try to get more from it - I realise that I can't expect concert grand bass sonorities from a U1 instrument, but I had to settle for the U1 because Yamaha don't supply the U3 or U5 (which have better bass tone) with the Disklavier in the UK.

Obviously some of these problems can be put down to my own lack of practice, and some of them are to be expected in a new piano before it has been 'played in'. But I am concerned that the Disklavier features (which I've decided I could probably live without) might be contributing to the problems, or even causing some of them. I paid for a new Disklavier piano having been warned off used ones on account of issues such as the replaceablity of the electronic components, but I am now thinking I could have got a much better piano for considerably less money if I had bought a second-hand instrument. (Including delivery, a stool and a pair of monitor speakers, I paid just under 8000 pounds for the new DYUS1A).

I need to decide reasonably soon if I have made a mistake so I can return the piano and ask for a refund or exchange. Or should I persist with the instrument and hope that the teething troubles will resolve themselves in due course?

Advice please?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 13 May 2008, 17:54

You should speak to the dealer about all of this. If you bought over the net you should check up on your rights re distance selling regs if you are going to ask for a refund. If your not covered by the regs I would say you have no chance, an exchange perhaps but the dealer will do everything to avoid this as they will than have a 2nd hand disclavier that will be a nightmare to sell.
However if they are worth their profit margin then they should sort all your probs out for you.

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 13 May 2008, 18:16

No, the seller was a proper Yamaha dealer and I bought a piano I'd tried out at the showroom. Whether or not I could get a refund or exchange (bearing in mind I've only had a month to get used to the instrument) is one issue, but I'm really asking if anyone recommends I should stick with the new Disklavier, rather than giving up with it and replacing it with a second-hand non-Disklavier instrument? I'm wondering if some of my concerns are just natural teething problems with a new instrument, probably exaggerated by me being so out of practice. Perhaps I should get a local teacher to give me a few lessons and see what they think about the situation?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 13 May 2008, 20:01

Strangley you have more rights for refund / return within a short time of purchase with net purchases than going into a shop and buying it.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 May 2008, 21:04

Hanonymouse wrote:No, the seller was a proper Yamaha dealer and I bought a piano I'd tried out at the showroom.

Because you have tried the piano in the shop and there is nothing wrong with it then no refund needs to be given. You can exchanged it if the dealer is happy to do that, but they can charge you a deprecation and removal fees.

If you have got it over the net without seeing it then you have 30 days cooling off and can get a full refund but if you enter the shop and buy then no

All depends on the dealer some will some will not

Barrie,

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 13 May 2008, 22:20

Hanonymous,

I don't have experience of disklavier instruments but I have done accompaniment work on two new Yamaha grands (C7 and C3) and I felt the action on both was very heavy-going to begin with. In fact I had to take breaks from playing them because my wrists were aching so much! As the pianos were 'played in' the heaviness got less and less of a problem and they are now both a pleasure to play and very fine pianos indeed. I'm interested to know who you bought it from as I may have some useful experience to pass on! If you want to, send me a pm.

As a music teacher I looked at getting a disklavier piano for school, but quite honestly I couldn't see the point. I'd tend to agree with the observations you made about their drawbacks. Still, the silent thing can be very useful.

I also found that rattles and buzzes are common with most new pianos as they 'settle'. Perhaps a good argument for buying pre-owned instruments??

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 13 May 2008, 22:54

From your replies it looks like my chances of getting a proper refund are pretty low, because the dealer probably won't regard the few weeks I've had the piano as a cooling off period in which I could be given a full refund if I change my mind about the purchase.

So I reckon if I'm going to have to accept losing some money if I resell the instrument I might as well take my time about deciding whether or not to keep it in the long term.

But regarding my concerns about the piano (the apparently uneven touch/tone, squeaky sustaining pedal etc), how likely is it that these are just due to the normal settling down of a new piano? Should I consider asking the dealer to revoice the instrument?

Or perhaps I'm being unjustly critical of the instrument because my own playing and listening abilities are rusty after years of neglect! I guess it can't be unusual for players who are out of practice to have problems adjusting to a new piano?

I think I'm also rather disappointed with the Disklavier functionality, it doesn't seem to be as useful or as usable as I had hoped. Is that a common reaction from new Disklavier owners? Perhaps I just need some advice on how I can make better use of the features and enjoy the instrument properly. What do you reckon?

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 13 May 2008, 23:24

Openwood:

Thanks for your response (I saw it just now when I posted a reply to the earlier contributors), which is quite encouraging, and I'll send you a pm shortly.

Indeed, the heavy action has been causing me considerable discomfort as well! I decided not to practice Hanon too assiduously because I thought I might damage a tendon or something, but I don't feel there's much point expecting to be able to play anything demanding if I get exhausted after only a few pages of finger exercises. But out of interest, how many hours of playing did it take for the pianos you mentioned to settle in (lighter action, less rattles and squeaks) and more of a pleasure to play?

I think I would have loved the disklavier features when I was a schoolboy, playing duets and accompanying myself on other instruments, and making transcriptions and arrangements for the synthesizer of orchestral parts of concertos etc. It would probably have helped my musical education at the time, but I'm not sure the instrument is suitable for mature music-making.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 14 May 2008, 07:06

For squeeks and rattles contact the supplying dealer. Unless they are on the invoice you didnt pay for them so shouldnt have to put up with them

. This is what the guarantee is for. The uneven touch tone should also be sorted out buy them. The sooner you get on to them about this the better. Has it had it 1st free tuning (after 1 month) as this is when the shops tech could sort them out. If its not the shops tech but just someone they are paying you need to make sure the shop is aware of the probs before he/she turns up.

athomik · Post by **athomik** » 14 May 2008, 09:22

Apart from a very slight difference in setting the let off (I believe), there is no difference between a disklavier and its equivalent plain accoustic model as far as the action, etc are concerned. There is no physical connection between any part of the action and the electronic side of things. Once your piano (as with any piano) has settled in, you should find hat it plays just fine (possibly with some slight tweaking when your technician comes to tune it). As far as support/reliability for the electronics go, there are some disklaviers which have been out there for 20+ years and are still going strong. Parts supplies for the original Mark I (released in 1986) are only just starting to run out, but pretty much anything more recent can still be fixed.

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 14 May 2008, 15:30

Well, you've cleared up my concern that the extraneous noises, heavy touch and uneveness of tone or touch might be due to the Disklavier mechanism. Those problems should sort themselves out as the piano becomes 'played in' and after a piano technician has done any necesssary tweaking.

However, that still leaves me with my disappointment with the Disklavier itself. I bought it partly because of Yamaha's claim for the Disklavier's usefulness as an aid to practicing the piano and learning new pieces. I suppose I'd become out-of-touch with the reality of piano playing after so many years away from the instrument, but now I've been playing again for a few weeks it's become fairly obvious to me that the the sort of help that a Disklavier can give would really only benefit beginners. But it might be that I'm just not making proper use of it - if any advanced players find the Disklavier useful I'd certainly like to know!

I suppose I should do what mdw suggested and see what the dealer says about it, and if he's prepared to give a refund or replace it with a non-Disklavier piano. The instrument's value can't really have depreciated much because of my usage - it would have been a demo instrument in the dealer's showroom if I hadn't bought it and would have retained its value. I would expect to pay something for the extra costs of transport and packaging though.

If I don't return the instrument I'd probably manage to find a use for some of the Disklavier features occasionally. But I suspect that whenever I played the instrument, it would be a constant reminder that I'd wasted several thousand pounds on features that I don't really need, when I could have got a much nicer-sounding and more responsive piano for the money (and without the settling-in problems of a new instrument if I bought a second-hand one) - that would certainly be a negative influence on my enjoyment of the piano, which I can definitely do without.

Writing this I think I've pretty much decided to bite the bullet and try to return the new instrument. If there are any Disklavier fans out there who think I should keep it please let me know! Otherwise, I reckon 7 to 8 thousand pounds can buy a really good second-hand upright - a Steinway would probably be out of my range but what would you suggest I should go for?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 14 May 2008, 18:04

Hanonymouse wrote: The instrument's value can't really have depreciated much because of my usage - it would have been a demo instrument in the dealer's showroom if I hadn't bought it and would have retained its value. I would expect to pay something for the extra costs of transport and packaging though.

Look at it another way. How much would you want off the price for a 2nd hand piano with electrics in it. No idea on Yam guarantees but I guess they wont be interested in any guarantee probs with any one else other that you as the 1st buyer. Let us know how you get on but I wouldnt hold out much hope.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 14 May 2008, 21:36

I would contact the retailer tell them you would like to upgrade to a Yamaha SU118C or YUS 5 see what they give you for yours if there is no marks on the case they will get away with putting it in the show room as an exdemo but expect to to pay out £700 +

You have Yamaha DYUS1A the action will be harder to play as they have the silent system in so the action is modified - only grands can offer the same touch as they have a separate set off system

Barrie,

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 14 May 2008, 22:57

Barrie - are you saying that athomik's comment "there is no difference between a disklavier and its equivalent plain accoustic model" only applies to grands, and that the DYUS1A action is in fact heavier because of the Disklavier? If that is the case I shall have to replace the instrument - I definitely find the DYUS1As action too heavy but was hoping that the problem would clear up when the instrument was 'played in'.

Your idea of asking the retailer for an upgrade to a SU118C or U5 is very sensible, but I'm not sure where you get the £700 + from? From half an hours googling it looks like the RRP for a new SU118C is about 8000 but most retailers are asking 5500 or so, and the RRP for a U5 is about 7000 but most dealers ask for about 5000 (figures vary). I've already paid the dealer almost 8000 for the new DYUS1A (RRP 10000), so I reckon if I trade it in for the SU118C or U5 I'd be out of pocket by 2 to 3K.

Both the pianos you mentioned are quality instruments, but I reckon I can get even more piano for my money if I go for a second-hand one. The retailer in question has two secondhand Bechstein uprights - perhaps I should ask him for one of those?

Hanonymouse · Post by **Hanonymouse** » 15 May 2008, 17:27

I've just been talking to the dealer. He's OK with taking the new Disklavier DYUS1A back as a part-exchange but I'll have to accept a loss on the deal as he is required by law to sell it as a second-hand instrument He pointed out that if I wanted any cash back I'd lose out more than in a part-exchange deal so I might end up paying a bit extra than I've already paid! Ho hum... at least I should eventually be the proud owner of a really nice musical instrument.

The dealer's looking into the figures to see what he can do for me, but his immediate suggestion was that I might be happy with a new Yamaha U3, which alarmed me slightly as his usual selling price for these is only 4850-ish - is he really suggesting I'll have to accept a loss of almost 3K for one month's use of the Disklavier (for which I paid just under 8K)? I'm interested in his secondhand Bechsteins (for 5995) which he reckons have a very light touch that I might like if I was finding the Disklavier action too heavy.

I asked about the U5 and SU118C (which Barrie had suggested) - the retailer said there's hardly any call for the U5 these days and that the U3 is a better bet in terms of retaining its value, and the SU118Cs are very nice instruments, but being handcrafted they vary a lot in quality.

Anyway the upshot of it all is that the dealer will do a part-exchange and says he can get any piano I want for me so I just need to let him know what I've chosen when I've decided. What piano I should I go for (second-hand would probably be best value and won't need playing in), without paying him much extra above the 8K I've already forked out?

Any comments?

ps how do you print out the £ sign on this thing? HTML is OFF in my options and I don't know how to switch it on.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 15 May 2008, 20:03

Hanonymouse wrote:which alarmed me slightly as his usual selling price for these is only 4850-ish - is he really suggesting I'll have to accept a loss of almost 3K for one month's use of the Disklavier (for which I paid just under 8K)?

Think how much you would loose if he was buying it back for cash. Its as bad if not worse than buying a car. May be ask for a load of free tunings to off set some of the loss.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 15 May 2008, 22:58

Hanonymouse wrote:Barrie - are you saying that athomik's comment "there is no difference between a disklavier and its equivalent plain accoustic model" only applies to grands, and that the DYUS1A action is in fact heavier because of the Disklavier? If that is the case I shall have to replace the instrument - I definitely find the DYUS1As action too heavy but was hoping that the problem would clear up when the instrument was 'played in'.

You can get the touch down a quite a bit but at the end of the day the silent system will not let it play the same as a standard model

Barrie,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 15 May 2008, 23:09

Hanonymouse wrote:
is he really suggesting I'll have to accept a loss of almost 3K for one month's use of the Disklavier (for which I paid just under 8K)?

Hmm seems a lot but he has the upper hand

Hanonymouse wrote: I asked about the U5 and SU118C (which Barrie had suggested) - the retailer said there's hardly any call for the U5 these days and that the U3 is a better bet in terms of retaining its value, and the SU118Cs are very nice instruments, but being handcrafted they vary a lot in quality.

I have 5+ SU118Cs on my round and I find them to be very constant I would say that the voicing is more varied than you get with a U3 out of the box sound to me he is none of them in stock

Barrie,