Buying a piano on a 2-3000 pound budget

[xiaoipower]

Hi all! First time post here on this great forum. I've been reading a lot of the past posts regarding buying grey import Yamaha U1s and U3s. Opinion here seems to be that a late 1980s (4-5 million series) is a good budget piano. Every dealer that carries this piano seems to have renovated it in some way or other. I'm guessing then that the best option for a novice buyer is to buy from a well-established dealer who has a reputation for good refurbishment. I was hoping that someone here could recommend a few good showrooms/dealers near Liverpool (I was planning on a trip to Forsyths in Manchester and the North West Piano Centre).

On another note, how much should I expect to pay for a piano that falls into this category. Prices given have been close to £3000 and I'm not sure what typical haggling values are (ie should I be aiming to knock off at least 10%?)

I called Forsyths to ask them about their stock and they stated that they refused to carry grey imports and warned me about the wear and tear on these models that were normally just buffed and shined to trick customers, any truth in this? The person advised me to buy a new piano instead, can anyone recommend something new in this price range (or are there any other better pre-owned models other than Yamaha)?

I know its a long post, so thanks for reading this far! Any feedback will be very much appreciated.

[PianoGuy]

I called Forsyths to ask them about their stock and they stated that they refused to carry grey imports and warned me about the wear and tear on these models that were normally just buffed and shined to trick customers, any truth in this? The person advised me to buy a new piano instead, can anyone recommend something new in this price range (or are there any other better pre-owned models other than Yamaha)?

Some are indeed old abused buffed up examples, but many aren't.

3k would easily buy you one of the Yamaha Pearl-River UP125Mis if you don't want to risk second hand. They're built in China as will be much in your price range, but with Yamaha input.

There are many choices. Try a few and report back here!

[xiaoipower]

Thanks for the advice PianoGuy, I just read some of your older posts (must get tiring answering these type of questions! so props again for the effort), I have posted some REALLY USEFUL links if you're also in my situation of previous discussions on this forum.

Anyway I was just wondering if anyone here has had experiences with the 'Music Box Ltd' or the 'North West Piano Centre' in Manchester?

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/pi ... =reputable

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/pi ... =reputable

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/pi ... ght=yamaha

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=3426

[vernon]

you'll get a pearl River Yamaha m 125 for £3400
a s/h Yamaha U1 ( a good one !)for £2250 or a new Kawai K2 for £2950
All delivered ex stock

from me
vernon

[mdw]

Could start to look a bit untidy if we all start offering our prices on here. I can also predict where it will end.

[PianoGuy]

Could start to look a bit untidy if we all start offering our prices on here. I can also predict where it will end.

Seconded.

[vernon]

agreed
vernon

We could show the United Nations a thing or two
v

[Barrie Heaton]

if you feel the need PM Them

Barrie

[xiaoipower]

Hey guys,

Finally managed to get my parents to drive me to 2 showrooms.

First one I visited, most of the second hand U1s and U3s were quite old 1-3million range. I'm not sure what the exact technical term is but they sounded 'dead' to me and gave the impression of huge wear and tear over the years (of course this could be a placebo effect, though I tried to play first then look at age). Played a YUS1 model though, I thought it sounded beautiful but at 4500 was a bit out of budget (also tried a Radius which was very nice).

Second shop - The second hands sounded a lot nicer, maybe because it was a smaller room. But the pianos just sounded 'warmer' and a lot closer to the new U1 and U3 I've tried. Unfortunately most were very old round the 2million range and had a slight 'buzz' when you hit keys with more force. The dealer said it was due to loose lid screws (i think) is this true (and can it be fixed)? Anyway, the guy has the following being prepared for me to see in 2 weeks time:

U10BL 1988 (£2900)
U30BL 1989 (£3200)
UX1 1987 (£3250)
UX3 1986 (£3650)

I've been led to believe the U10 and U30 are basically the U1 and U3. Is there an equivalent to the UX1 and UX3 (I hoping but doubt they'll sound like the new YUS1). And any thoughts on the price? To be honest, I thought the dealer in the second shop was really nice and wanted to sell me a 'good piano' rather than just being eager to push anything out the door. And I'm quite willing to pay a bit more for better service.

I did ask the second shop what sort of 'refurbishment' went on. From what I recollect, he said the hammers were smoothened(?) to knock out the grooves, keys were individually cleaned, and that all loop cords were inspected (he said that if 2 or 3 needed replacing then all of them were old and so were all replaced). Is there anything specific I should be asking next time or looking for (he talked about casework repolishing or something but I wasn't really paying attention)? He also let me see the grey imports he had that hadn't been prepared yet. From what I remember the U30BL had a few wonky keys but sounded good even without any work done, just wondering if this is likely to be a C grade import (I'd imagine it would take many years of playing to get the keys out of place, by which I mean some were a bit higher than the rest).

Bloody hell - posts just seem to be getting longer . Guess I'm just excited at the prospect of ditching my old £100 piano (NOT a typo!). Once again, any advice will be much appreciated!

[PianoGuy]

Good research!

The "X" models have a different construction to the back and are allegedly 'hand finished'. They were the predecessor to the YUS models, but never offered in the European market. Take a look round the back of one and see the difference. From memory, the UX1 has a vented front to the top door of the case but is otherwise as per a U1, but the UX3 has an odd angled section above the fall, making it look a bit like a current model with the slow-fall mechanism..... Except it's not fitted with one. A bit ugly I reckon!

Don't worry if one or two keys are higher than the others at rest. try pressing down at the back of the key near the maroon felt and then release. If the key is now level, there's no real fault. Yamaha U-series keys can often raise above the correct level if they're released quickly. If the fault remains, then the keys need levelling.

Prices aren't too far off. There may be room for a bit of negotiation. Steer clear of older ones if they're sounding dead. They probably are!

Keep checking in!

PG

[xiaoipower]

Any idea about the 'buzz' then (heard when playing loudly)? Is it a sign of wear and tear or poor refurbishment? Or is it just a loose screw that can be easily fixed?

Will update when I go back to have another play.

[mdw]

Could be anything. Thats why you buy from someone you trust with a good reputation who will sort it out. Polyester can be a bit more of a problem than satin finishes for buzzes I find but it could be in the action, soundboard, case , brasswork anywhere. Could be a twist of a screwdriver to sort, could be the bridge splitting off the soundboard which is big bucks to repair properly.

[vernon]

buzzes are a pain and as mdw says, could be anything..
Leaving aside the bad belly cracks, loose bridge etc., they can be caused in my experience by;
loose screw or two in long hinges. a broken bridge pin( broken out of sight.nasty) Loose fillets on backing cloth (older pianos),loose case panels(older pianos again) but most usually by a sympathetic resonance in the room. This can sound right inside the piano but can be a vibrating electric fire, picture frame, ornament etc. Go for things near the piano. have an assistant to play the( generally one) offending note while you traverse the place touching everything except the hostess.
vernon
They can re-appear in different weather conditions. If you get a buzz it must be looked at that day.
vernon

[Openwood]

buzzes are a pain

It's the MOST FRUSTRATING THING IN THE UNIVERSE! We have a C7 at school (fab piano - get out there and buy one now) and viewers may remember that I was whinging on endlessly about a buzz last year. It was actually more of a metallic edge to the note than a buzz but I can't describe it any better than that. Anyway, the piano's had more professional attention than Jordan's boobs over the last year and I was assured that it was a voicing issue rather than anything vibrating in or around the piano.

The note in question is the B-natural above middle C and, to a much lesser extent the C-natural next to it. Even though the piano's been extensively voiced twice now, I still find there's a bit of an edge to those two notes - although definitely far less than there used to be.

It's got to the point where I'm telling myself I'm just hearing things, and I also realise that this B-natural is where the agraffe's stop on the C7, so it is a 'transition note'. But then the other notes above it don't have the same problem.

Weird. Don't know why I mentioned it, really. I'm going into town for a coffee now, care to join me? No? Well, suit yourself.

[xiaoipower]

Just a thought - but how much should a brand new Yamaha U1 or Kawai K2/3 cost in the North West? The current second hands I'm looking at are all around 3000, can I stretch my budget to say around £4000-4500 and get a well prepared new piano? Or would this take considerable luck to find.

PS I've also found a 5.5 million U3 (£3000) which was supposedly sold NEW in the UK but built in Japan, I'm led to believe these are generally superior to the 'grey imports' as they were built with the UK climate in mind. Anyway to verify the pianos' history?

[PianoGuy]

The 5.5M UK market piano would be the best bet by far if it's a good well cared for example. Sounds a bit cheap, so make sure it's not a high milage ex-Royal Northern or Chet's one!

Did you like it? Advice from here is irrelevant if you didn't!

[joseph]

how about something like a yamaha p121, its the same size as a U1 and is apparently an improvement on the old u1 that is being imported.

Here's a link to chris venables website that has inifo on it. BTW I have no connection with mr venables, I live in dundee and have nothing to gain from giving this advice, but imho this looks like a very good buy, and it looks like mr venables is a good dealer.

http://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/modelspe ... 0Piano.htm

[PianoGuy]

how about something like a yamaha p121, its the same size as a U1 and is apparently an improvement on the old u1 that is being imported.

No it isn't.

It may be better than some, but many imports will trounce a P121N. Don't believe all you read on the web.

Furthermore, the Kemble range offers the same piano as the P121N badged as a Kemble and in a better range of casework styles and finishes.

[athomik]

PS I've also found a 5.5 million U3 (£3000) which was supposedly sold NEW in the UK but built in Japan, I'm led to believe these are generally superior to the 'grey imports' as they were built with the UK climate in mind. Anyway to verify the pianos' history?

The climate idea is largely irrelevant. For years, all Yamaha pianos are have been made from wood seasoned in a kiln to the same exacting specifications. This idea is used as a bit of a scare tactic by Yamaha in the US to discourage people from buying grey imports. Irrespective of what climate a secondhand piano may have been destined for, the conditions it was subjected to in the past have had a far greater effect. It is much more important to regulate the temperature and humidity in the room you keep your piano in than worrying about any notions of which market it may have been destined for.

[xiaoipower]

Going to see the piano tomorrow! ( can't wait!)

Anyway it seems owner gave me slightly incorrect info, they've emailed me with the exact details

Yamaha U3FS c1990 - 1997 (includes sostenuto pedal)
£3,495
Uk Specification
5222223
Second hand

I'm guessing the FS just means it has a sostenuto pedal and not some cheap Chinese imitation right?

As to the price, I think he mentioned it underwent very little refurbishment (if any) as it had hardly been played (his exact words were 'hadn't been broken in yet') hmm I don't know maybe he's skimping on the prep work. Anyway, will find out tomorrow...

[mdw]

PS I've also found a 5.5 million U3 (£3000) which was supposedly sold NEW in the UK but built in Japan, I'm led to believe these are generally superior to the 'grey imports' as they were built with the UK climate in mind. Anyway to verify the pianos' history?

The climate idea is largely irrelevant. For years, all Yamaha pianos are have been made from wood seasoned in a kiln to the same exacting specifications. This idea is used as a bit of a scare tactic by Yamaha in the US to discourage people from buying grey imports. Irrespective of what climate a secondhand piano may have been destined for, the conditions it was subjected to in the past have had a far greater effect. It is much more important to regulate the temperature and humidity in the room you keep your piano in than worrying about any notions of which market it may have been destined for.

However if and it is unlikely you needed and Yamaha parts or back up from Yam UK you will politely be told to go away as its not a UK piano they wont hold parts. Strings, shanks etc your tech will have its only odd bits you would need from Yam UK. But as youve saved loads of dosh thats the trade off plus a slightly lower sale price in future as its grey market.

[xiaoipower]

However if and it is unlikely you needed and Yamaha parts or back up from Yam UK you will politely be told to go away as its not a UK piano they wont hold parts. Strings, shanks etc your tech will have its only odd bits you would need from Yam UK. But as youve saved loads of dosh thats the trade off plus a slightly lower sale price in future as its grey market.

By that do you mean that a second hand UK Yamaha would be provided with after sales support by Yam UK (even if I'm not the original buyer?)

[mdw]

No but if your tech wanted lets say new pedals from Yam UK from what I understand you wouldnt get originals. Your tech would however be able to get something near from the supply houses.

[vernon]

to be fair, you are unlikely to ever need any major Yamaha parts in the lifetime of either you or your piano.
Yamahas get very sniffy about their product, as did Hammond organs and Steinway in the past. That has now all changed and parts for anything are available on the internet .Everyday parts your tech will have in stock.
They will all gradually come to heel when times get hard.
vernon

[PianoGuy]

Yamaha U3FS c1990 - 1997 (includes sostenuto pedal)
£3,495
Uk Specification
5222223
Second hand

I'm guessing the FS just means it has a sostenuto pedal and not some cheap Chinese imitation right?

Correct.

U3, Series F, fitted with sostenuto.

[xiaoipower]

Bought the Yamaha U3 (arrives thursday)! A big thanks to everyone who posted!

Anyway details are:

Yamaha U3FS (with matching stool)
Serial No. 5222223
Built in Japan, Sold New in UK (NOT grey import)
1 Previous owner
12 Months Warranty
First tuning free
Including delivery and transportation of old piano to a friends house

All for £2900 from Cheshire Pianos

Anything in RED is information that I cannot verify, but I believe the dealer to be true to his word.

Piano had not been serviced at all. Bass was rich but piano didn't sound as warm as other U3s I'd played (but I prefer the mellower sound. Action was very smooth, a few marks here and there but aesthetically great.

Anyone know about the customer support from this company?

Just a quick plug for the North West Piano Centre though, I would probably have bought from them had I not found such a new U3. But the guy there is really friendly and certainly not interested in rushing out shoddy polished products.

[athomik]

However if and it is unlikely you needed and Yamaha parts or back up from Yam UK you will politely be told to go away as its not a UK piano they wont hold parts. Strings, shanks etc your tech will have its only odd bits you would need from Yam UK. But as youve saved loads of dosh thats the trade off plus a slightly lower sale price in future as its grey market.

There is no problem getting parts for secondhand or grey import pianos from Yamaha UK, as long as it is a model which was officially sold in the UK at some point, or it shares parts with such a model. Where this is not the case, parts would be difficult to get hold (or even identify) of as most of the technical information would be in Japanese if it is even available. On (very) old pianos, there is also the possibility that the parts are simply no longer available, even in Japan.