Valuation for KAPS 6ft Grand Piano 1886

Hooplescat · Post by **Hooplescat** » 19 Mar 2008, 14:37

Hi forum

Understanding how no true valuation can be given until a real inspection takes place, I am hoping someone might give just the broadest of value ranges for an 1886 Kaps Grand Piano.

The piano is painted over black, and a proper restoration of the original walnut surface is going to cost around £2000, and before I commit I want to get a broad idea of what it might later be worth. The frame is mahogany, it tunes fine and plays perfectly well.

The date is arrived at by serial number, which is 10146 - the serials 10000 to 12000 ran 1885-1887, so we can be pretty confident of 1886 as being a sound build year.

Thanks for any advice - I don't expect exacts, but any advice from someone who knows more than zero about it (like me) would be greatly appreciated

Matt

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david g · Post by **david g** » 20 Mar 2008, 21:55

Since you have had no replies as yet, I thought I would respond. Although I certainly would not claim any expertise in piano prices, I do perhaps know a little more than zero!

The Kaps sounds to be a lovely piano, and it is great that you are proposing to restore the original walnut. I don't know much about Kaps, but my feeling is that it is a "good make". You don't however say very much about the mechanical condition of the piano. Has it ever been restored / reconditioned? Any cracks in the soundboard? What is the condition of the hammer felts? Are the strings original and are there any problems with them? Etc.

My feeling is that with a piano of that age, most of the value would lie in restoration work if that has been done. If no work has been done, so that although the piano plays well it would benefit from some form of reconditioning, my guess is that the monetary value would not be great - a few thousand if you are lucky. And if that is the situation, I am not sure that you would get your 2000 pounds back if you sold the piano. However I am not saying that the case work is not worth doing, certainly if it was my piano I might well be tempted to spend the money if it was an instrument that I loved.

Can you say more about the condition of the piano? Does more money need to be spent on the mechanical aspects?

Any further opinions, anyone?

Hooplescat · Post by **Hooplescat** » 20 Mar 2008, 23:25

Hi david

Thanks for your reply, it is appreciated.

I guess I am not experienced enough to know about the mechanics of the piano - it is currently with a 'piano man' who is set to arrange the polish and transportation for me, and he said there was no problem with the insides of it, although how comprehensive his inspection, I cannot say. I know it is tuned (or was before we moved it) and all keys played clearly and in tune and with no latent problem, but as for cracks etc I have no real idea.

I have a dilemma, because I am struggling to find room to keep the piano, but it is a thing I have always wanted (a grand - I played an upright as a child, and want my children to learn) and would love to have it in the house - I have always loved the whole experience of a grand piano. But I don't want to cart it backwards and forwards, and would love it to be properly restored on the case - the danger is that I may do it, spend the money, and then find with the best will in the world that it is just too much of a squeeze to keep long term, in which case of course it would be nice not to end up out of pocket.

Such an individual instrument, and like all of them, an individual history and lifetime of treatment, it is so hard to estimate value - I have seen them sell for 2-12 thousand, and higher for a fully restored one. Obviously this one, with unrestored mechanics is likely to be lowest end.

Thanks for your time

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Post by **vernon** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:49

If you have a Kaps 1886 grand don't expect it to worth anything commercially even after restoration. If you want to keep it and play it that is different and it's value will be what you make of it.
Vernon

Hooplescat · Post by **Hooplescat** » 21 Mar 2008, 22:04

hi vernon - so would you say it would not be worth the 2k restoration cost if I had to resell it after the work?

my preference will be to keep and enjoy it, but as mentioned, my issue is only recovering some cost if I cannot live with the squeeze it will leave in my house later

maybe i need to just diet hard

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 22 Mar 2008, 00:51

Hooplescat wrote:would you say it would not be worth the 2k restoration cost if I had to resell it after the work

The big problem now is new pianos are so cheap that it makes restoration not viable. Even if you spent loads on it , it will still have lots of hidden problems just waiting to surface. All those animal glue joints waiting to come undone etc etc. Your best bet is to look arround at what you can buy for the money you would spend on the restoration and weigh it up. Once these Yam B3s turn up in the UK I think there will be a big drop in the prices for the grotty and middle of the road U1s and 3s being touted round the web at the moment. Whos going to buy a ex music school Yam when they can get a new one with 5 year guarantee for the same or less dosh.

david g · Post by **david g** » 23 Mar 2008, 21:35

Hooplescat,

There are some people who love fine antique pianos, and others who don’t really appreciate them. I am definitely in the former category. So you know where I am coming from, I have an 1881 Bluthner grand, which has now been in the family for about 60 years. A few years ago I had it reconditioned - soundboard cracks repaired, new strings, new hammer felts, new tuning pins (the old ones were slipping), the action generally regulated. This work made the most incredible difference to the piano. We had always thought it ok before (at least until the pins started slipping), and never dreamed what potential lay in the piano that could be unlocked by reconditioning.

I suspect that your Kaps might be in a similar situation. You said that your piano man said there was no problem with the insides of it. However I find it difficult to believe that a piano of that age would have mechanics in pristine condition unless it had been recently restored, and if that had happened I am sure you would know about it. It is very likely that some reconditioning work would greatly improve the instrument.

I have been thinking further about your situation, and it seems to me crazy to be contemplating spending 2000 pounds on the case, when you simply do not know the mechanical condition of the piano. Therefore, what you need to do first of all is to engage a technician to do a proper assessment of the piano, and provide you with a report. If he finds anything serious (hopefully this will not be the case) you will have saved spending this money on something that is just not worth it. If however (which is quite possible) he says that the performance and the tone of the piano would greatly benefit from some attention to e.g. the hammer felts and strings, followed by regulation and voicing, then you need to consider how your priorities lie - whether to do the case work first and the mechanical work later, or the other way round.

Personally, it does not seem to me that any of this will be worth pursuing unless you intend to keep the piano, as if you do the work and then sell the instrument I cannot really believe that you will recover your money.

I hope the outcome is that you love the piano enough to sacrifice space to it, that you have it restored and then enjoy the thrill of owning a fine antique piano. The decision is yours. But I feel that the sound advice is the same as the advice to someone thinking of purchasing any used piano - get a tech to check it out thoroughly before proceeding.

Hooplescat · Post by **Hooplescat** » 23 Mar 2008, 22:08

Thanks, David, sounds like great advice - and I think I have worked out where it can live with plenty of room, so hopefully will be able to spend the money safe in the knowledge it won't have to be sold.

I will try and find a technical guy to appraise it, thanks for your thoughts

Matt

Post by **vernon** » 23 Mar 2008, 23:50

Whereabouts in our great country do you live so that perhaps one could point you towards an honesttechnician
vernon loch ness

Hooplescat · Post by **Hooplescat** » 23 Mar 2008, 23:58

Hi Vernon

A long way from your beautiful part of the world - I am in the Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire.

Post by **vernon** » 24 Mar 2008, 13:15

were in your part last Nov for a wedding at Cresswell Castle

super area
vernon

david g · Post by **david g** » 24 Mar 2008, 19:53

I sent you a PM with details of a tech who seems good and is fairly near to you, I think.

Do let us know how it all works out!

And if you could post any photos of the piano, that would be very interesting.