CONCENTRATE!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 03 Mar 2008, 18:27

I always liken it to learning to read; you'd see your dad reading the newspaper and think 'I'll never be able to do that'. Yet now you read the paper almost without thinking, (probably the best way...

). All I can say is that one day you'll be doing the musical equivalent of mouthing the words and saying 'c-a-t' in your head, and the next you'll just look at it and say 'cat'.
You simply have to be patient (not a common trait in the adult male learner, in my experience!) and wait for that

moment...

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 03 Mar 2008, 20:15

Sounds like you need a 2 by 4 slapped across your knuckles never mind a ruler!

Seriously though, you don't have to be self-taught to end up being a poor sight-reader! Sight-reading is one of the worst taught skills in private tuition today. I was horrified when Trinity College announced their decision to make sight-reading optional for students taking examinations from Grade 1 to 5, under the terms and conditions of their revised syllabus! Don't get me wrong - I love the board but this decision may be a little misguided. As Gill says, as you read, you no longer have to start reading the phonemes of words to know what a word says - you just know what it says. The same thing happens when you look at music - you can recognise scale-like phrases, intervals (triads are the most common and easiest to process), looking at the shape of the piece by looking at the pitching of the notes. For me, sight-reading is all about building up enough experience to be able to scan music without really having to examine music in great detail. Doing so reduces the speed of reading by literally thinking too much about it - I think you can 'over-concentrate' as well as going to the other extreme.

I came across someone recently called Yoke Wong who has recently brought out a range of tuition materials that deal specifically with sight-reading techniques. That may be worth checking out, particularly if you plan to continue down the self-taught route.

Grenache · Post by **Grenache** » 03 Mar 2008, 23:19

Hi,

I have the same bother - some days I take pleasure in trying to sight-read an unfamiliar piece as my sight-reading's pretty awful and I need the practice. Other days when I'm finding difficulty concentrating, I play some of my old favourites where either I don't need the music or only need it here and there as a memory jogger, and try to improve the quality of the playing.

I must admit I find it really difficult to move between a piece with flats then on to sharps as well.

What's the address of the website you found, Dave?

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 18 Mar 2008, 00:04

Hi Dave!
Interesting you mention the meds. Years ago I was put on a cocktail of amytriptaline (or something like that!) and Prozac and the effect the Prozac had on my mental processes as far as the piano goes was phenomenal! I memorized the G minor Brahms Rhapsody in a couple of days in a way I'd never known before (or since, sadly). I can honestly say I knew every single note of it and can still play it from memory even without touching it for months on end. It was like lifting a fog while I was under the influence of the drug. Goodness only knows what it did to my brain (I suppose the fact I had one in those days probably helped) but I think going back on it just to improve my appauling concentration now would be a bit drastic.
Just to prove the point about my concentration, while I was practicing this morning, amongst the many thoughts that drifted through whilst I was attempting to learn the dots was your starting this thread in the first place. Indeed, everytime I realise how far my attention has wandered I think of your opening line "Yes, concentrate, Dave"!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:26

We all be fine and dandy, thank ee kindly! Hope the same goes for you both.
Good old Ronnie Corbett, remember it well! A mere 38? You are but a babe in arms! I may have a two year old in tow but I am a positively ancient 47 (ouch, there, I said it!)
While I was practicing this morning it struck me that the biggest hindrance to concentration is not having the ability to slow the mind down enough to just think about the matter in hand rather than letting it meander all over the place thinking about anything and everything, which is odd really when I consider the afforementioned effect Prozac had on me. While I was taking it I was as high as a kite most of the time so how I managed to calm my mind down to learn the Brahms is beyond me! The mind - 'tis a strange and wonderful thing!
Spaghetti junction? Mine's more like a ball of wool after the cats have given it their all!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:01

Evening, Dave!
Thank you for your kind comments

For what it's worth, I know quite a few "mature" (as the medics so kindly put it) Mums, so much so I instigated the OFM club (Over forty Mums, not what you might have thought!) in a bid to preserve our sanities at the time my youngest arrived, and believe me, 41 is nothing - you've got ages yet!
As to the performance thing, I can totally relate to the girl you mention. I always much preferred a totally anonymous audience to one full of friends, family, colleagues, etc on the basis I never had to face the unknowns again whereas my nearest and dearest would always be there the following day,even if the flaws in my perfomance weren't dominating their thoughts as much as they were mine. The performance thing is a truly awesome beast and one I don't think I'll ever fully understand.
Good luck with the Grade 1 pieces, they have a very wide range of technical demands imho, more so than most previous years. Most of my pupils usually end up playing pretty much the same programme (by their choice) but next term I've got them covering the entire repertoire between them. Will be interesting to see which ones you prefer. Enjoy!
Btw, I wouldn't consider a career as a stand up comic if I were you!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:18

And what did St Patrick say as he drove all the snakes out of Ireland?
"Are ye all roight in the back dere?"

Sorry...

Oy, Celestite; I'm 47 the week after next...so you're actually young and vivacious. Or vicious, in my case. My mate gave birth to her first at 43, and is still a legend for bawling at a consultant (who referred to her as an 'elderly prima gravida') "WHO YOU CALLING ELDERLY, YOU OLD GIT???"

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:52

Yo Gill, of course we're still young and gorgeous

(well, it's the thought that counts, in my case!) Good for your friend-I was classed as an elderly prima gravida at 37 so goodness knows what that made me at 45 second time round.
On the subject of snakes, anyone know what the snake in Jungle Book is called?

crescendo · Post by **crescendo** » 20 Mar 2008, 00:40

Kaa.

Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 20 Mar 2008, 08:06

Brilliant! Thanks, Crescendo. Now I can stop doing my King Louis impression and start on "Trussssst in me" to occupy mini sprog!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 20 Mar 2008, 10:42

Hi Dave
I'm fine, ta, about to go and do some practice while the little chap's with his childminder (me time today instead of tomorrow cos the hoards will be here!)
Just a quick note about the ABRSM system. You choose one piece from each of the three sections for the exam and should be aiming to provide a balanced programme which best suits your particular strong points. As for the choice of fingering, nothing is cast in stone but as a general rule of thumb (pardon the pun) you should aim for something which feels comfortable and avoids any unecessary changes in hand position, ie, set yourself up for as much of what follows as possible before you need to change position again. Everybody has different shape and size hands and what works for one doesn't for another. Eg, if there has to be a stretch between fingers I prefer it to be between fingers 2 and 3 but I have taught people who are more comfortable with the stretch between 3 and 4. It just depends on your hands.
Happy ivory tinkling!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 20 Mar 2008, 10:42

Hi Dave
I'm fine, ta, about to go and do some practice while the little chap's with his childminder (me time today instead of tomorrow cos the hoards will be here!)
Just a quick note about the ABRSM system. You choose one piece from each of the three sections for the exam and should be aiming to provide a balanced programme which best suits your particular strong points. As for the choice of fingering, nothing is cast in stone but as a general rule of thumb (pardon the pun) you should aim for something which feels comfortable and avoids any unecessary changes in hand position, ie, set yourself up for as much of what follows as possible before you need to change position again. Everybody has different shape and size hands and what works for one doesn't for another. Eg, if there has to be a stretch between fingers I prefer it to be between fingers 2 and 3 but I have taught people who are more comfortable with the stretch between 3 and 4. It just depends on your hands.
Happy ivory tinkling!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 20 Mar 2008, 19:48

I've got short fingers, but manage to get around the keyboard all right!
Look at the beginning of your exam pieces book and it'll tell you the other requirements for your exam, like aural tests (you WILL need a lesson for that), sight reading and scales and arpeggios - or broken chords for GI I think. There's a cheap book (may even be free, but don't get yer hopes up; they aren't known for generosity!) from the Board called These Music Exams which will give you the low-down on what to expect.
If you find yourself a nice friendly teacher for a lesson or two, find out if there's a friendly unintimidating centre at which you can take the exam; here we have a choice between a huge church, involving a great long walk from waiting room to exam room (the church itself) where a large black grand sits on a stage; a posh local huuuuuuge house with a heavy-actioned grand; or a small room in a lovely Edwardian house with an open fire and an upright Steinway. I know which one I'd prefer!

Your fingering sounds as bad as me - my teacher used to call me Fingers Carter when I was a brat, for my habit of using whichever fingers happen to be lying about rather than those indicated. If you use your own fingering it must be a) efficient and b) consistent. You have 3 memories, visual, aural and kinaesthetic - ie, you remember what you see, hear and FEEL. Your fingers will 'remember' a consistent pattern, but not if you change the fingering every time you play.
You may feel you've 'learned' a piece, but don't forget, there's more than the notes involved. If you really want to do the exam, get a lesson so someone can check your touch, posture, interpretation, speed and all-round musicality.
We're going to get you through this bloody exam if it kills us...!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 20 Mar 2008, 20:38

I second that, Gill! Distance learning at its finest, eh?
I'll have another look at the ABRSM website and check, but it's at the back of my mind These Music Exams is a downloadable pdf file. It may be that you have to have a candidate number to log in and download, in which case I'll get on to it for you, Dave. A couple of lessons would have many merits, all those Gill listed plus the advantage of a critical ear and the performance experience prior to the exam.
I'm lucky enough to have large hands, for a girlie, and can stretch a 10th without too much trouble (easily when I do the necessary stretching exercises, which I wouldn't recommend if you don't know what you're doing!)
As for my childhood musical experiences, I don't remember much of what my parents listened to apart from Dad having a load of Easy Listening LPs

My training was purely classical with a very intimidating spinster who continued to put me on edge even into adulthood but to whom I will always be indebted. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be where I am now (it just wasn't worth the torture of turning up for a lesson having not practiced!) I also used to go regularly to Covent Garden to the ballet as a child, with my best friend and developed a passion for the music there. For my own listening experiences, I rebelled big time and was into heavy metal and rock (I was a biker in my youth, none of your namby pamby mopeds for me - the full 650cc jobbies for this one!)
We'll be celebrating your distinction in Grade 1 next term! Go for it

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:09

Ask us what you don't understand. I mean, I know a lot about it although I'm not a teacher (too vicious, see...), and Celestite IS at the sharp end and knows all about it, as does Marky and Samick and many many others.
But now you see why we keep saying about lessons!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:17

Hey Dave, I'm Queen of the Wafflers! If it ever becomes an olympic sport, I'm a dead cert for Gold!
Good choice of pieces. How are you getting on with the ornaments in the Sarabanda?
I checked out These Music Exams and you can download it from the download centre on the ABRSM home page. If it makes you feel any better about their website, I think it is one of the most complicated and badly laid out sites I have ever come across. No matter how often I visit it, it always takes me absolutely ages to find the information I want. If you do find yourself a teacher, they'll be able to enter you without any hassles but if you decide to enter yourself, you'll need to set yourself up as an applicant and get assigned an applicant number.
On the subject of finding a teacher, if you don't have any joy with the teachers listed on musicteachers.co.uk you could try looking at the ISM website. They have a list of registered teachers which is where I found my mentor.

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:20

As Gill says, ask away! I am a font of all useless (and ocassionally helpful) information! It actually is nowhere near as complicated a process as it sounds and certainly nothing you should let put you off of your new found mission in life

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 22 Mar 2008, 17:06

Love to him - and you - from us all. Look after him; tell him his piano needs him!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 23 Mar 2008, 01:11

Consider it done! Always struck me as a happy key

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 23 Mar 2008, 01:12

You can have the minors, dim and dom 7ths for free too

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 23 Mar 2008, 11:11

Fortunately, they can't hear the piano next door, but I wasn't playing then anyway. Just enquiring for my next opportunity to get to the ivories (which with this lot at home could be a while yet

)
How's your playing going?

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 23 Mar 2008, 20:51

A certain irony has just occurred to me - this thread started out all about concentration - look how far we've meandered and strayed from the topic!
It amused me (little things etc)

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 23 Mar 2008, 22:07

I would be truly honoured, kind sir!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 24 Mar 2008, 14:39

I refute Marley completely; if you hit your practice hard, you DO feel pain - I can feel my 4th and 5th fingers all the way up to me shoulders sometimes!

GO for that Sarabanda, boy!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 24 Mar 2008, 21:24

I find I get dreadful brain ache when I practice too (I use the term "brain" loosely, you understand. Jelly ache might be more appropriate!) So Marley obviously had some other method of remaining pain free, methinks

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 25 Mar 2008, 21:37

Dave-go for it on the typing front! Touch typing is a brilliant form of finger exercise. When I was at college we all had to do a non musical module as part of our degrees (goodness only knows why, who were we mere mortals to argue with the hoy poloy of higher academia?) Without fail, all the pianists did the computer skills course so we could exercise our fingers on the keyboards! I get awfully confused if I have to look at the keyboard when I type (probably something to do with the fact I can type faster than I can think so I just let my fingers do their own thing and, hey presto, it works - get my brain involved and it's doomed to failure before it ever gets started!)

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 18 Jun 2008, 22:50

Cracking topic!

Started in march last year, purchased a Roland A90ex, passed grade 1 (xmas) and 2 (april), now going for 3 having just got a proper piano (Zimmermann Z1).

My only tip is you cannot place a value on a quality teacher. Mine I googled and looked for one with also a cert ed - general teaching qual, and fell on my feet. Being a qualified teacher myself I latched onto what he was sorting re my preferred learning style - this is crucial!

My strength is scales, weakness is sight reading but getting better now I have 'slowed down' a little knowing my grade 3 exam isn't until xmas so am doing the pieces properly, using the music rather than trying to remember pieces.

I also have a mate who has played professionally, and his help is invaluable on practical things like chord phrasing when we play 'pop' music

Basically, there isn't alot you can do other than practice, is there? LOL

dave - the sarabanda piece is nice - my fav grade 1 piece is the fuch one tho - beautiful and gets better as you get more proficient.

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 19 Jun 2008, 07:29

PS - other than obviously learning to play new songs, I also use the Paul Harris books on 'improving your sight reading'.

For the price I have found these very useful, as they are structured nicely for my learning style and are easy to follow.

For the price, they are not bad value at all.

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 19 Jun 2008, 17:00

I did mini-rag - and liked it too. I want back to playing it recently having forgotten the correct notes at the right time and after 10 minutes of sight reading got it back again. i find that the graded pieces live with you forever - you play em that often when practicing?!?

The fuch piece is simply lovely, tho, IMHO, and I play it for anyone wanting to hear the z1 in all its glory....

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 19 Jun 2008, 20:02

Nope, dear chap. It just means that you read all the notes as written but rather than having loads of ledger lines because the left hand is playing above middle C, both hands are written in the treble clef, ie what you would normally play in the right hand is still the same but your left hand is just a bit closer to your right hand than it would be if all the written notes were below middle C and in the bass clef. Does that make sense?

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 19 Jun 2008, 20:18

You're right about the exam pieces staying with you forever, abc...forty years on I can still play me grade 2 pieces! I think exams pieces are the only pieces I really learn properly...

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 19 Jun 2008, 20:49

How about just having a go at the left hand on its own to familiarise yourself with the sound of it, especially since the left hand has the tune and is the part you're going to want to bring out in this piece. Make sure you have the correct hand position before you start then try to think in terms of intervals (eg up a 3rd or whatever) aswell as the note names.

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 19 Jun 2008, 22:13

One of the grade 3 pieces I'm learning is totally with both staves with treble clef, and another is a mixture. its as described above, but interestingly once you actually suss it it helps you read the notes better and where they are as you have to actually think, etc, if you get my meaning.

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 19 Jun 2008, 22:36

Believe me, Dave, 8 or 38 makes no difference in the overall scheme of things! After nearly 42 years at this lark, the only difference between you and me is that my finger wiggling problems are more complicated!! You're doing fantastically - don't be impatient!

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 20 Jun 2008, 07:31

Don't moan at being 38 - I'm 42!

Celestite · Post by **Celestite** » 20 Jun 2008, 09:26

38? 42? Pah! Gentlemen, you are mere babes in this game! My gran started having lessons at 72 because she wanted to be able to play Onward Christian Soldiers and the oldest pupil I have ever taken on was a chap of 78 who wanted to be able to play Dambusters!
(Could explain my mental state

)

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CONCENTRATE!

Sight Reading.