Woodchester Arlingham Tudor

tog · Post by **tog** » 24 Feb 2008, 22:57

Hi All

My wife teaches piano, part time, to novices and has for the last few years been using her grandfathers old Chappell upright. The piano is coming to the end of its life and we need to replace it. Her grandfather used to play the piano in a church and each Sunday the piano was wheeled down to the church on a trolley and then wheeled back after! I think the mileage and old age have finally caught up with it!

She only teaches a handful of students so we are not quite in the market for a new or even used Bosendorfer ;o)

What she really needs is a reasonably good quality piano that will hold its tune, has a good tone and doesn't sound like one of the dreadful Eastern European/Russian packing cases we have seen in the local dealers! It wouldn't be in for the level of abuse suffered by an unattended secondary school piano. A really nice black Yamaha U1 or even a U3 would be good but somewhat beyond our budget.

I have been offered Yamaha Us by various companies at around 1800 - 2500 but they are bought blind which always seems like a risky business unless you know and trust the people you are buying from and I don't know them from Adam. Of course they all claim that their pianos come form Japanese music schools and are cheaper because they buy them directly from the importer. Our local dealer wants over 4000, but for that they deliver it leave it to settle and then tune it and they also put several years guarantee (I have an idea it may have been upto 5 years) on the piano.

Someone she works with has a piano for sale which was (supposedly) bought new for their daughter, by her grandfather around 5 or 6 years ago. It was delivered, tuned and she played it half a dozen times and it hasn't been touched since -ie not tuned or played. I know this is generally considered to be a bad thing.

The only information I have on it is that it is a Woodchester Arlingham Tudor, well its definietely a Woodchester and I am assuming it is an Arlingham Tudor from the serial number which is ARL TUDOR 58911601 and it claims to have been made in England. Is it possible to tell the age from the serial number - looking at the number I would have could have believed that it was really piano 1061 made in 1985 - which means it either sat in a dealers for a long time or it wasn't quite as new as they were lead to believe by grandpops! Alternatively I am reading too much into the serial number!

The present owners offered it back to the company it was purchased from but they only offered a pittance for it - according to the present owners, unfortunately we don't know what the offer was.

We haven't discussed a price for the piano yet - I didn't want to go that far until I had sought the opinions of the regulars here.

So the question is - how much is an Arlingham Tudor worth? How good a piano is it? Would the money be better spent towards say a used Yamaha or Kawai etc etc? We would of course be getting a tuner to check it over - as soon as we can find a good tuner who will also do inspections, our old tuner has now retired (Huntingdon area of Cambridgeshire).

I have found very little information on this piano, only that late ones are rebadged Petrofs (I take it that this is a bad thing?) and that there is a dealer in Lancashire who has a new Arlingham (old stock) for sale at around £3,600 and that original Woodchester Pianos no longer exist.

All pearls of wisdom greatfully received!

regards

Dudley

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 24 Feb 2008, 23:19

They were Petrof strung backs and detoa ( I think from memory) actions with a British case. The Arlingham Tudor had the fancy mahogany panel in the top and possably bottom door and a turned leg at the front ( well 2 legs!!). It all realy depends on what your budget is and what you can get for the same money and what you like.
They were made at the old Bentley factory. If you like the case and sound go for it. It may hold its value better in future simply because it wont be yet another black Yam U range piano. In the same way theres loads of teak 70s and 80s 110cm uprights which arent worth much now I recon in a few years traditional style black Yams are going to be 2 a penny. They will look sooooo early 2000s. At least the teak satin piano can be stripped and repolished to almost any colour. Black polyester = your stuffed!!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 24 Feb 2008, 23:25

The Tudor bit refers to the casework.

You really need to get a photo of it to me. If you can get a pic of the frame it would really help, and I can tell you a lot more about it. Email to piano-guy@hotmail.co.uk

Woodchester's specifications were getting very random towards the end of production. The Elmore was always a rebadged Petrof/Rieger-Kloss, and some models were actually Bentley or Welmar frames with Woodchester badges stuck over them, but I'm not sure which the Arlingham was. Depending what they could afford to put in, actions were either the horrid Detoa if you were unlucky and a Langer if you were slightly luckier.

All Woodchester designed frames were phased out soon after the merger with Whelpdale's to become the BPMC. The best model was actually built around a French Klein frame, and these were usually painted in flat grey rather than the usual gold or metallic beige, and had a Renner action. I'll check on exact permutations of specification and get back to you shortly.

4K seems a bit steep for a used imported U1 even from a top notch dealer. 3k should buy you a 4-million plus serial numbered minter, and I reckon it'd be a better bet than most Woodchesters, but you're right not to buy blind.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 25 Feb 2008, 09:06

From what I remember the pre BPMC Petrof framed ones had the frame covered in the dimples. It was a long time ago and we only had a small number of them in when Woodchester first started. The action will have a label on the hammer rest rail telling you the maker.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Feb 2008, 17:52

Ok then:

The Arlingham was first based on a Legnica frame from Poland. These are all likely to be utter rubbish, so if the frame looks as though it was cast in a rough sand lined mould, walk away. The design proved very poor due to incurable falseness of tone especially in the tenor region.

Later, the Czech Petrof frame was used. This is the one covered in dimples. It's a vast improvement over the Legnica, but still a bit grimski korsakov comrade, since it's basically a slightly refined communist-era design.

I'd pay no more than £500 for a Petrof based piano in a private sale, but it's only a small piano at 112cm, so a Yam U1 will beat the pants off it all round. As for residual value, yes it will hold on to being worth £500 for a long time to come, but I don't see it as the great investment that mdw does........

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 25 Feb 2008, 18:13

PianoGuy wrote:
As for residual value, yes it will hold on to being worth £500 for a long time to come, but I don't see it as the great investment that mdw does........

Your words not mine. I said It may hold its value better in future and you have confirmed that with As for residual value, yes it will hold on to being worth £500 for a long time to come.

My point was that when tastes change what was hip today becomes out of favour tomorrow and the piano industry if anything has become more of a slave to the latest fad than in the past. I repolish a number of pianos each year which are in perfect condition just the wrong colour. Strip, stain and respray put the price up and off they go.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Feb 2008, 18:15

Ah!

Misunderstood you there!

As you were!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 25 Feb 2008, 18:48

* Height 117cm (46")
* Width 143.5.5 cm (56.5")
* Depth 54.5 cm (21.5")
* Full 88 note keyboard
* Hardwood Fully Braced back.

Available in a range of finishes:

* Mahogany Bright
* Mahogany Satin
* Walnut Bright
* Walnut Satin
* Teak Matt
* Black Bright

Click for larger image

The Arlingham Tudor

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 25 Feb 2008, 18:56

white is coming into fashion

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Feb 2008, 19:48

What she really needs is a reasonably good quality piano that will hold its tune, has a good tone and doesn't sound like one of the dreadful Eastern European/Russian packing cases we have seen in the local dealers! It wouldn't be in for the level of abuse suffered by an unattended secondary school piano. A really nice black Yamaha U1 or even a U3 would be good but somewhat beyond our budget.

Tog, you should be aware that any model of Arlingham *is* basically a British assembled Eastern European Crate, so think carefully!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 25 Feb 2008, 21:23

sussexpianos wrote:white is coming into fashion

Oh when did it go out

some retailers still stock Woodchesters and Bentleys not seen a white one

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Feb 2008, 21:42

Barrie Heaton wrote: some retailers still stock Woodchesters and Bentleys not seen a white one

Barrie,

Bentleys weren't Eastern European designs!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 25 Feb 2008, 22:02

PianoGuy wrote:
Barrie Heaton wrote: some retailers still stock Woodchesters and Bentleys not seen a white one

Barrie,
Bentleys weren't Eastern European designs!

Sorry you have lost me there...... New pianos from a make that stopped 5 years ago was my point

Barrie,

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 25 Feb 2008, 22:30

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Please no white pianos. It just isn't nice.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 25 Feb 2008, 23:34

Don't be silly, Openwood; you only have to wait a few years and they go YELLOW!

tog · Post by **tog** » 26 Feb 2008, 00:27

thanks to all who have replied - I take it then that the phrase 'made in England' is used with the same gay abandon that 'home cooked food' is in grotty (and not so grotty) pubs - ie they bought it in and have heated it up in the microwave therefore they cooked it and it is home cooked.

I haven't seen inside the piano so don't know if it is sand cast etc.

From what has been printed here i suspect that the owners expectations of its value may far outstrip the real value of the piano and that the offer made by Millers Music Centre wasn't as derisory as the owners believe.

I'll try and arrange to go and have a look at it before I book a tuner to go and inspect it. I'll also try and sound them out about what vlaue they thnk it is worth.

Maybe I also need to start a new thread with a question about the cheap Yamahas

regards

Dudley

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Feb 2008, 06:36

Millers are a good old firm and would offer a decent trade price. I'm guessing around £200 - £300 ?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 26 Feb 2008, 07:55

Gill the Piano wrote:Don't be silly, Openwood; you only have to wait a few years and they go YELLOW!

Perhaps they could then be sold as cream or ivory at a premium!!!

tog · Post by **tog** » 26 Feb 2008, 11:00

"Millers are a good old firm and would offer a decent trade price. I'm guessing around £200 - £300 ?"

They may well be a good old firm however they charge absolute top whack for their instruments both new and secondhand

(

As I said previously I don't know what they offered for the Woodchester - if I find out I'll post it here.

regards

Dudley

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 26 Feb 2008, 12:04

tog wrote:"They may well be a good old firm however they charge absolute top whack for their instruments both new and secondhand

Wonder if the 2 are connected.............................top service ..............top price?
Just a thought!

So when you buy your piano from them theres a good chance they will be arround in 5,10 15 or 20 years time to deal with you.

Ask some of the cheap traders
if they will buy the piano back that you purchased from them

or will they come and tune it for you

or move it room to room when you decorate

or sort out that sticky note ( that turns out to be a tiddly wink down the side of the key so they dont charge you )

or spend 20 mins on the phone advising you executors when you have died

or coming out at 7pm one evening to sort a sticky note as your child has a exam in 3 days time and needs to practice NOW

or going out at 10pm one evening when you have come home to find a burst pipe flooding into your Bluthner grand.

Almost to a man/ woman the answer will be no way you are on your own mate!!
Well that is the sort of service some of my customers have had in the last 4 months. And to offer that you have to make some sort of a profit. These people who sell the cheap pianos dont seem to be trained. The view seems to be I play the piano therefore I know what im on about. Im sure they make a nice little profit but they take the cream off the top of the cake for those of us who offer the full service. And as we all know cake without cream is not as nice as cake with cream!!!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Feb 2008, 14:04

That's the kind of service that shops used to provide, but the discount boys have all but eradicated.

Good service costs money, and I'd rather deal with a firm that offers that service and pay a little bit more. That's why I reckon that there's mileage in Millers' price to haggle. I would add that I have little experience with the firm in question, other than knowing they've been in business long enough to have survived a couple of wars and recessions, so they are probably doing something right.

tog · Post by **tog** » 26 Feb 2008, 17:16

Do you work for Millers then?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 26 Feb 2008, 17:40

Who me???
Nope I run my own small piano shop and tuning business. Totaly different area of the country. Just getting tired of jonny come lately cherry pickers who want to do the profitable bits of the trade and stuff the rest. Well if thats what the public want they may well get it.

tog · Post by **tog** » 28 Feb 2008, 23:57

I don't object to paying a little more to get good service and sound advice about an instrument but I do object to paying way over the odds for one.

The main reason that they have survived so long is that they don't have much competition in Cambridge. There are a couple of other piano dealers - not in the center though, but they just sell pianos and don't offer the range of instruments, cds, sheet music etc that Millers have.

I have no experience of the quality of Millers secondhand instruments having only ever purchased a couple of new saxaphones about 15 years ago.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Feb 2008, 08:42

tog wrote:I don't object to paying a little more to get good service and sound advice about an instrument but I do object to paying way over the odds for one.

That's why I reckon you should chip 'em on the price.

tog wrote:The main reason that they have survived so long is that they don't have much competition in Cambridge. There are a couple of other piano dealers - not in the center though, but they just sell pianos and don't offer the range of instruments, cds, sheet music etc that Millers have.

Local competition counts for little these days when there's the net to get supposed bargains from.

tog · Post by **tog** » 29 Feb 2008, 12:43

Local competition counts for little these days when there's the net to get supposed bargains from.

I think in general that is absolutely true. However, the marketplace inCambridge is probably a bit skewed. There is a large community of affluent academics in the town and Millers is convenient as they can just wander out of college and into the shop and talk to real people.

There is also a bit of a county set type thing going on of which the older generation are not as ebay/net savvy as most.

However, that limited audience is almost certainly shrinking and I suspect that difficult times lay ahead, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not the day after, but coming they are.

I suspect that Millers may also still be benefitting from an ancient lease or contract on the property they are in which is almost certainly owned by one of the colleges and not paying what could be considerd to be a 'current' market for Cambridge city center - ie astronomical.

regards

tog

tog · Post by **tog** » 29 Feb 2008, 13:00

We hope to go and look at the Woodchester sometime in the next week. However, as it isn't a done deal I am looking around for dealer sourced pianos. Trawling through the forum postings I found a personal recomendation for a company called Little & Lampert in Buckinghamshire from a customer who had purchased a 4,000,000 plus U3 for 2k. I have spoken to Little & Lampert and they sound ok and claim to a supplier of pianos to other dealers as well as selling them from their own showrooms. They are not exactly on my doorstep, about an hour and a half away , so not really very far

Here is what they have to say about themselves

.......................................................................

We at Little & Lampert Pianos have been importing used Japanese pianos from Japan since 1995.

Our most popular pianos are Yamaha models, which offer fantastic value for money.

The quality of Yamaha pianos is world-renowned and once they have passed through our workshops they are as good as new.

Prices range from £1895.00 for a U1 model up to £9995.00 for a C5 model.

WE CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE THAT OUR YAMAHA USED PIANOS ARE PROBABLY THE BEST IN THE U.K. WE NOW SUPPLY OVER 45 DEALERS AROUND THE U.K.

...........................................................................

Anyone care to recommend or slate Little & Lampert ?

If you would rather not comment - either way, in the forum please feel free to send me a PM - user name tog membership number 5916

regards

tog

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 29 Feb 2008, 14:28

tog wrote:

Anyone care to recommend or slate Little & Lampert ?

If you would rather not comment - either way, in the forum please feel free to send me a PM - user name tog membership number 5916

I would sugest if you are not sure enough to say it in public , dont say it in private.

I dont buy from them ( because we dont stock that sort of stuff) but ive never heard anything bad about them.

tog · Post by **tog** » 29 Feb 2008, 14:58

I dont buy from them ( because we dont stock that sort of stuff) but ive never heard anything bad about them.

ok, well let me turn that around then - have you heard anything good about them?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 29 Feb 2008, 15:53

No but dont let that put you off. The name was mentioned to me that they did imported Yams. I didnt ask if they were any good or not as I didnt need the info.
However if nobody else can advise I will try and find out early next week .

tog · Post by **tog** » 07 Mar 2008, 17:36

Well my wife finally went to see the Tudor last night and it won't be making its way chez Tog.

It was the cheapo Polish frame. She said it sounded ok but no better than ok. The keys seemed to be very stifd and felt as though something was rubbing as you depressed a key, that said they seemed to come back up ok.

It also came out in conversation that the present owners had a Cambrisge dealer out to look at it a month or so ago (not Millers where it was bought from originally) and the dealer offerered 700 quid for it - which they turned down as being too low!

I have advised them to get on the phone and see if the offer still stands!

Thanks for the qdvice.

Just to add to the confusion my wifes mother, who also teaches piano, is now moving house and wants to get give us her teaching piano. I think its another Chappell. I'll give it a look over at the weekend and see if I can find a serial number etc.

Thing is, its going to be hard to turn it down, so I am hoping it plays well otherwise we'll end up having to take it and for it to have some mysterious breakage inside that can't be repaired in a couple of months time ;o)

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 08 Mar 2008, 09:11

£700 is certainly generous! There should be one Cambridge dealer with an arm out of its socket by now.

tog · Post by **tog** » 08 Mar 2008, 15:12

well of course they may have offered 700quid x number of weeks ago, but the chances are that they have sobered up again by now ;o)