Good afternoon everyone,
I am an Italian chap of the tender age of 42 who after a short interruption of 28 years would like to start playing piano again.
I am presently going around London in the search not only of a "beginner's" piano, but of something that I can buy in the hope that it will serve me for a long long time and (not one day too soon) be able to easily bury me.
At the moment I am undecided (unless something new comes out in the next days) between two pianos:
1) a new Kemble conservatory
2) an almost new Broadwood Imperial (dealer bought from liquidation and apparently kept since).
The Kemble would cost ca. GBP 4,000 for cash, the Broadwood a similar amount, very probably more but remaining in the same ballpark.
I like the "warm" sound of the Kembles a lot, but every shop has a different floor and environment so I cannot tell if the Broadwood (which sounded pretty good in a shop with tiled floor) would sound less good in my carpeted reception room.
I also like the tradition represented by Broadwood, but frankly would not necessarily pay a big premium for it against the (also British) Kemble.
I would like to know if you can give me some indication about the questions going around in my inexperienced mind:
1) How much is the real quality in a Broadwood and how much does one pay for the name compared to a Kemble. I understand that I have to pay more for a UK made piano, but frankly not for the writing "by appointment of Her Majesty etc." or the fact that Beethoven had a Broadwood.
2) how did the "Imperial" compared with the "Conservatoire": was it an "entry level" like the Cambridge or Oxford from Kemble or was it a more refined piano (that was rather my impression if you ask)
3) How did Broadwood happen to go bust: just too many cheap chinese pianos or did they have quality problems in the last years?
Thanks to everyone
Nibbio
Kemble vs. Broadwood
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
A late Broadwood is a rebadged Bentley or Welmar. There is no Broadwood influence or extra investment potential and whilst some were excellent pianos, many more were very poorly screwed together. They were made by the late lamented (?) BPMC who paid a royalty to a canny businessman who owned the trademark use the name.
Oddly, the Broadwood badged ones do seem to be made with a bit more care than their Welmar counterparts which can suffer from just about any kind of ailment that a new piano can, including badly fitted actions; poor string spacing; impossible to adjust celestes and most worryingly a total deadness of tone and poor sustain especiially in the treble around the break. The worst have bridges that seem to be designed by a monkey, and the third string of the trichord fouls on the side of the carving, which is exactly what it's not meant to do, rendering them all but untuneable.
A few years ago I used to tune a number of these, but far fewer now. I can only assume that their owners have either ditched them as shite pianos or their tuner as an incompetent! It may have had something to do with the tuner's mutterings whilst he was at work! Either way I'm not sorry to see them go!
I would go for the Kemble for the sake of reliability, but if you really love the Broadwood, get an independent tuner to check it out thoroughly, it may be one of the gems.
The last Broadwoods were made as long ago as 2003, so it's gratifying that an Italian should want to buy a piece of English history. Most Brits couldn't be arsed then nor now.......
Oh, one final thing. £4k is too much money. The dealer will be chuffing desperate to sell that Broadwood, so offer him two and a half and haggle. Settle on no more than 3k.
Oddly, the Broadwood badged ones do seem to be made with a bit more care than their Welmar counterparts which can suffer from just about any kind of ailment that a new piano can, including badly fitted actions; poor string spacing; impossible to adjust celestes and most worryingly a total deadness of tone and poor sustain especiially in the treble around the break. The worst have bridges that seem to be designed by a monkey, and the third string of the trichord fouls on the side of the carving, which is exactly what it's not meant to do, rendering them all but untuneable.
A few years ago I used to tune a number of these, but far fewer now. I can only assume that their owners have either ditched them as shite pianos or their tuner as an incompetent! It may have had something to do with the tuner's mutterings whilst he was at work! Either way I'm not sorry to see them go!
I would go for the Kemble for the sake of reliability, but if you really love the Broadwood, get an independent tuner to check it out thoroughly, it may be one of the gems.
The last Broadwoods were made as long ago as 2003, so it's gratifying that an Italian should want to buy a piece of English history. Most Brits couldn't be arsed then nor now.......
Oh, one final thing. £4k is too much money. The dealer will be chuffing desperate to sell that Broadwood, so offer him two and a half and haggle. Settle on no more than 3k.
Thanks, you are a really nice piano guy!
The broadwood is offered for 4995 and it becomes slowly clear to me why it has been unsold all these years... although I must say the piano looked good as a piece of furniture and sounded good too but I'm too inexperienced to judge the details.
I will then, unless there are some surprises at the last minute, go with the Kemble and will try to get it at less than GBP 4000.
Actually I got an offer for GBP 3,800 last sunday, but the seller was very pushy, lied to me making me more inexperienced than I really am and was frankly unpleasant, besides the shop was pretty far away.
I prefer to spend GBP 200 more, if must be, but buy my piano from a firm and people I like and can trust.
About the british thingy, I like these "old Britain" things and if I buy new I would, ceteris paribus, prefer to give work in the country which gives me work....
As we are on the subject, what do you think about Rieger Kloss?
A new piano ("123" I thin it was the name) has been offered also around GBP 4,000. I liked the sound but not as much as the Kemble, beside the internet site with many parts only in czech did not make the best of impressions...it would seem the name is actually the one of an organ producer and the pianos are produced by other people "borrowing" the name...
any clue?
I am oriented toward the kemble for "emotional" reasons, but am curious anyway...
Thanks again
Nibbio
The broadwood is offered for 4995 and it becomes slowly clear to me why it has been unsold all these years... although I must say the piano looked good as a piece of furniture and sounded good too but I'm too inexperienced to judge the details.
I will then, unless there are some surprises at the last minute, go with the Kemble and will try to get it at less than GBP 4000.
Actually I got an offer for GBP 3,800 last sunday, but the seller was very pushy, lied to me making me more inexperienced than I really am and was frankly unpleasant, besides the shop was pretty far away.
I prefer to spend GBP 200 more, if must be, but buy my piano from a firm and people I like and can trust.
About the british thingy, I like these "old Britain" things and if I buy new I would, ceteris paribus, prefer to give work in the country which gives me work....
As we are on the subject, what do you think about Rieger Kloss?
A new piano ("123" I thin it was the name) has been offered also around GBP 4,000. I liked the sound but not as much as the Kemble, beside the internet site with many parts only in czech did not make the best of impressions...it would seem the name is actually the one of an organ producer and the pianos are produced by other people "borrowing" the name...
any clue?
I am oriented toward the kemble for "emotional" reasons, but am curious anyway...
Thanks again
Nibbio
Nibbio - I would wait and buy a mint-condition s/h English-built piano of the 1970s/80s/90s PRE-amalgamation era and consider also ones which go back a considerable number of years if they've been properly restored. There are some beauties around for less than £2000 and some have hardly been used - Chappells, Knights, Broadwoods etc. Some pianos dealers still have last-gasp English-built pianos of the late-90s and early-00s and are attempting to sell them for a notionally 'new' retail price. Do not be tempted!
I know of a lovely mint-condition 1980s Broadwood for under £2000 if you're interested (it's not mine!)
I know of a lovely mint-condition 1980s Broadwood for under £2000 if you're interested (it's not mine!)
Never been a fan of Rieger Kloss. Built in Jihlava, Czech republic, and really not quite as good as they should be now that they're no longer communist. Blighted by the ubiquitous Detoa Action which I dis like with a vengeance.Nibbio wrote:
As we are on the subject, what do you think about Rieger Kloss?
A new piano ("123" I thin it was the name) has been offered also around GBP 4,000. I liked the sound but not as much as the Kemble, beside the internet site with many parts only in czech did not make the best of impressions...it would seem the name is actually the one of an organ producer and the pianos are produced by other people "borrowing" the name...
any clue?
I have a feeling that Bohemia pianos are related if not made in the same factory, but these seem to have a growing reputation for better build quality than the Rieger Kloss. I have insufficient in-depth experience of the Bohemia to comment further.
Never been a fan of Rieger Kloss. Built in Jihlava, Czech Republic, and really not quite as good as they should be now that they're no longer communist. Blighted by the ubiquitous Detoa Action which I dislike with a vengeance.Nibbio wrote:
As we are on the subject, what do you think about Rieger Kloss?
A new piano ("123" I thin it was the name) has been offered also around GBP 4,000. I liked the sound but not as much as the Kemble, beside the internet site with many parts only in czech did not make the best of impressions...it would seem the name is actually the one of an organ producer and the pianos are produced by other people "borrowing" the name...
any clue?
I have a feeling that Bohemia pianos are related if not made in the same factory, but these seem to have a growing reputation for better build quality than the Rieger Kloss. I have insufficient in-depth experience of the Bohemia to comment further.
Thanks again,
in the meantime, and as life would have it, some things have changed: I have been made redundant, together will all the member of the team in which I work, this very morning (the life of a city banker is generally gratifying but at times testing, I suppose one must take the good with the bad anyway...)...
Not being in dire straits financially I needed less than a minute to decide that i do want to go on with the project and buy a piano, I will have a wonderful opportunity to practice in the next months and would always regret not having used this time to do what I really, really want to do.
As a result and encouraged by the fact that a well known London dealer has the piano I wanted in stock, I went there this afternoon (after the, ehem, somewhat early end of the working day....) and must say I really liked the thing, the saleslady was not the best pianist on earth but the tone was, as expected, very "warm" and, as the poet would say, aptus mihi.
As a result we agreed in principle over the price (which is pretty good, well below £4,000) and the only remaining obstacle is now the visit which I must receive from the piano mover to see if he can bring my piano over the (pretty narrow) staircase, if everything goes well I should then have my piano home in one week.
By the way, the shop is pretty amazing, wonderful piano section looking on the west (the lightfall this afternoon was simply irresistible), abundant choice, very beautiful atmosphere and nice sales people (big difference with the other shop with pushy seller where I had been before).
Please say a prayer for me that the piano will get through the stairs; if it has to go through the window it will be a both expensive and time consuming exercise...
Ciao
Nibbio
(if you wish, please say a prayer for me not only as far as th epiano is concerned, thanks)
in the meantime, and as life would have it, some things have changed: I have been made redundant, together will all the member of the team in which I work, this very morning (the life of a city banker is generally gratifying but at times testing, I suppose one must take the good with the bad anyway...)...
Not being in dire straits financially I needed less than a minute to decide that i do want to go on with the project and buy a piano, I will have a wonderful opportunity to practice in the next months and would always regret not having used this time to do what I really, really want to do.
As a result and encouraged by the fact that a well known London dealer has the piano I wanted in stock, I went there this afternoon (after the, ehem, somewhat early end of the working day....) and must say I really liked the thing, the saleslady was not the best pianist on earth but the tone was, as expected, very "warm" and, as the poet would say, aptus mihi.
As a result we agreed in principle over the price (which is pretty good, well below £4,000) and the only remaining obstacle is now the visit which I must receive from the piano mover to see if he can bring my piano over the (pretty narrow) staircase, if everything goes well I should then have my piano home in one week.
By the way, the shop is pretty amazing, wonderful piano section looking on the west (the lightfall this afternoon was simply irresistible), abundant choice, very beautiful atmosphere and nice sales people (big difference with the other shop with pushy seller where I had been before).
Please say a prayer for me that the piano will get through the stairs; if it has to go through the window it will be a both expensive and time consuming exercise...
Ciao
Nibbio
(if you wish, please say a prayer for me not only as far as th epiano is concerned, thanks)