any ideas???

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 21 Dec 2007, 00:04

Hi, I`m trying to decide which piano to buy. I`ve just sold a bechstein grand and now need an upright. Am considering new and second hand up to £5000. I want a technically responsive piano ( more than my 1912 bech) but with a nice warm tone. Am thinking: Kemble conservatoire, Yam U3, Kawai K6 and possibly Schimmel (2nd hand) any ideas guys?
Chris.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 21 Dec 2007, 00:09

Any of the above, basically. I can't see you being disappointed with any of those if they're well prepared and you've tried them out beforehand. Comes down to which one you like best.

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 21 Dec 2007, 00:50

Yeah I guess so, the trouble is getting them along side each other to try.
Am I missing any options do you think?
Thanks,
Chris

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2007, 00:52

Kemble K121CLM Mozart

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 21 Dec 2007, 01:00

Unfortunately my wife doesn`t like that one! I know it`s supposed to be good. I`ve also looked at some second hand U3 circa 1980, but found the bass end lacking! Music box in manchester have one they`re replacing the bass strings on, but I don`t feel too much from those Yams I tried. I guess I think I`m homing in on a Conservatoire, but will try and fing the Kawai K6 to test out. The Schimmel I`m looking at is a 13 year old 116cm for 4000 and I think it might be a bit pricey? Also a little heavier action.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Dec 2007, 09:10

chrissydaboo wrote:Yeah I guess so, the trouble is getting them along side each other to try.
Am I missing any options do you think?
Thanks,
Chris

getting the Kemble and Yamaha side by should not be too big a problem the Kemble Centres of Excellence will stock all the Kemble range and more than likely have some Yamaha's stock. you should look at Zimmermann Countrywide Piano Centre stock Kemble Yamaha and Zimmermann but it all depends were you live.

Kawai and Yamaha side by side is the hard one, Peter Smith in Scotland stock both Horsham Piano Centre stock Kawai and Kemble but that are not a centre of excellence so it is unlikely they will stock the big Kemble pianos

looks like you will have to clock up some miles

Have fun

Barrie,

A piano is for life not just for Xmas so take your time

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 21 Dec 2007, 11:01

Thanks! Zimmerman? are they the bechstein derived pianos? Also what do you think of Vogel? Could you put them in an order of which has the best action ( most like a grand !) ? Kawai has the millenium 3 action I think and Kemble and yams use renner?? I know it`s a personal choice but does anyone have a preference? Is a new piano going to have better action than say a 1900`s Grotion steinweg or whatever they`re called?
This forum is very helpful, thanks!!

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 21 Dec 2007, 16:48

Watching this thread with interest, as my Budget is £5k, and I'm starting the miles trip tomorrow with a visit to Clements in Nottingham to look/try the kawai's...

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 21 Dec 2007, 18:09

Horsham ain't the only ones stocking Kawai and Kemble down in the south you know! I stock them and next year I will be getting Wendle & Lung pianos. There isn't many Samick 131WSU out there but I think they are very nice.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Dec 2007, 19:35

chrissydaboo wrote:Thanks! Zimmerman? are they the bechstein derived pianos?

Yes and the few I have worked on have been very nice

chrissydaboo wrote:Also what do you think of Vogel?

Better value than the Schimmel IMHO and they stay in tune as well

chrissydaboo wrote: Could you put them in an order of which has the best action ( most like a grand !) ? Kawai has the millenium 3 action I think and Kemble and yams use renner??

Yamaha and Kemble use Yamaha actions

Barrie,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Dec 2007, 19:39

sussexpianos wrote:Horsham ain't the only ones stocking Kawai and Kemble down in the south you know!

I just put a few up that came to mind I did not site you, as you know your stock better than I do and was waithing for you to say "we stock them"

Barrie,

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 22 Dec 2007, 10:14

Thanks Barrie, I wasn't moaning

. I try not to advertise my services via these forums as i think its a bit cheeky

but try and give my advice on my experiance ( only 15 years of it but Im sure it helps).

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 22 Dec 2007, 10:43

I reckon if a dealer is trying to assist a purchaser, then what's wrong with using a furum to do so?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Dec 2007, 11:57

sussexpianos wrote:Thanks Barrie, I wasn't moaning . I try not to advertise my services via these forums as i think its a bit cheeky but try and give my advice on my experiance ( only 15 years of it but Im sure it helps).

We have no problems with retailers promoting what they have on offer at the end of the day this site was set up to promote pianos tuners and the good care of them - so the more pianos that are sold the more work there is for piano tuners

the more retailer/ techs there on the forum the better - A wider the range of pianos that are sold in the UK will be talked about which is what we set the forum up for.

All comments about pianos are useful especially end users as I do know that the manufactures read forums like this one

Have a nice one

Barrie,

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 22 Dec 2007, 12:32

Thanks guys for the thoughts you`ve suggested! One last question is there a time suited to buying a piano that`ll get you the best deal? Say January when everyone`s broke after buying that seven legged turkey??
All the best,
I`ll report back when I`ve researched a bit more and tried a few!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Dec 2007, 14:14

chrissydaboo wrote:Thanks guys for the thoughts you`ve suggested! One last question is there a time suited to buying a piano that`ll get you the best deal? Say January when everyone`s broke after buying that seven legged turkey??
All the best,
I`ll report back when I`ve researched a bit more and tried a few!

use to be July as most who have money to spend have Holidays on their mind not pianos so trade is slow, but Jan is the next best time

Barrie,

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 22 Dec 2007, 14:45

ever heard of RAC pianos? they have all 3: kemble, kawai and yam!

pockpock · Post by **pockpock** » 22 Dec 2007, 15:37

try http://www.stuartjonespianosales.co.uk/

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 22 Dec 2007, 21:57

Well - 1st trials started today:

Tried:
Kawai k3 and K5 – Japan
Yamaha U1 – Japan
Sauter 114 Custom – Germany

Guess which one sounded the nicest?

Guess which one was the most expensive?

To try – Kemble K121, and Yamaha U3...

Clements of Nottm is also a nice shop!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Dec 2007, 22:07

abc1337 wrote: Sauter 114 Custom – Germany!

the 122 130 are very nice and the action is good but the case is very Art Deco but you may like that

Barrie,

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 22 Dec 2007, 22:25

Barrie,
this one was a custom made one for Clements - not art deco at all - and sounded very nice indeed.

It set the bar, so to speak, IMHO and WMLE...

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 28 Dec 2007, 20:13

hi guys,
I went to look at a kemble conservatoire today at Forsyths, manchester. Was a bit disappointed really. There was a schimmel C 116 in walnut satin that sounded and played much better! It was priced at 5900, do you think that this is a good price for a schimmel? I`ve tried to look at other pianos but find they aren`t doing it for me! More confused than ever, though I think I`ve discounted the Kawai as a contender!!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Dec 2007, 20:55

the 116 is nice did you look at the Vogel range try a trip up the M6 to omega music they are the main agent for Ed Seiler

Barrie,

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 28 Dec 2007, 21:10

LOL another make to look at!

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 29 Dec 2007, 02:21

Thanks Barrie, I might try that as well. Is 5900 a good price for the 116 Schimmel? I think that would have to be my uppermost price for a piano. I was originally looking to spend a bit less. I don`t know anywhere else locally to stock Schimmels besides Forsyths! Do Seilers come at that budget? the link you gave me suggests not!! Are all kembles so bright ( some might say harsh!) in their bass end tone?

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 29 Dec 2007, 02:22

Also Vogel range seems to be like Hen`s teeth. Any idea where and cost for those?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Dec 2007, 03:28

chrissydaboo wrote:Do Seilers come at that budget? the link you gave me suggests not!! Are all kembles so bright ( some might say harsh!) in their bass end tone?

Seilers are pricier than Schimmel, which in Germany is the cooking home grown piano if you forget about the recently improved former Commie-bloc makes. Talking of which, Vogel is the Schimmel budget brand, made in Kalisz, Poland to such strict Schimmel control and design, you'd never believe the Poles (famous for poor pianos both in the Communist years with the Calisia and Legnica and today with the Irmler) had anything to do with them. Prices are about 30% lower than Schimmel, and should be available at Schimmel dealers.

Kembles only have a harsh tone these days if they're insufficiently voiced or older stock.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 29 Dec 2007, 11:51

I don't know if this is helpful or just adding to the complications of choosing a new piano but for what it's worth:

I troll around the place accompanying on a number of pianos, all quite new, two of which are Kembles. Most of the others are Yamahas and a few are firewood with a bit of badly applied make-up. PG is absolutely correct in stressing the importance of voicing as it really does make all the difference, whichever make you choose. It's the biggest single thing I've learned since joining this forum.

For my money, I would say that the Kembles do produce a far more mellow tone than the Yams, and I think I'm right in saying that the company see this as part of their mission. BUT I find the Kemble tone is mellow to the point of actually sounding rather muffled. Now I know that I'm in a minority of, well, one on this forum by saying that, but that's my honest impression of the ones I play regularly and also of the ones I've played in the past.

I used to think Yamahas were horrible because all the ones I'd played were very harsh but then I played some which had been properly voiced and I was completely converted. It seems to me that Yamahas provide more scope for tonal adjustment to suite your individual preference whereas Kembles have 'mellow' running through them like a stick of Blackpool rock. It may well be that I've just had bad experiences with Kembles, like I did with those harsh-sounding Yamahas, but there it is.

Anyway, that's enough about trivial matters like the sound. Far more importantly: Why do Kemble stick that nasty cheap-looking badge on the fallboard (no, it's just above the keys, isn't it?). It makes the piano look like it came from a toy shop.

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 29 Dec 2007, 12:47

Ok, well I can probably discount Seiler as being out of my price range then! Vogel definitely sounds interesting. I`ll try and find some and report back. The kembles in Forsyths: Con and Mozart were both quite strident in the Bass and sounded more metallic than the Schimmel. Also compared to the older Schimmel I`d played the action on the new one was excellent and very responsive. Thanks all.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 29 Dec 2007, 12:53

chrissydaboo wrote:Thanks Barrie, I might try that as well. Is 5900 a good price for the 116 Schimmel? I think that would have to be my uppermost price for a piano. I was originally looking to spend a bit less. I don`t know anywhere else locally to stock Schimmels besides Forsyths! Do Seilers come at that budget? the link you gave me suggests not!! Are all kembles so bright ( some might say harsh!) in their bass end tone?

You would have to go down south for Schimmel and may cost more.... but you do have Sales on! they are not discounted like some makes. Seilers are a bit more expensive but nicer. I think Dawsons in Warrington stock them but the problem with that shop Winifred Atwell would complain that the pianos are out of tune

As to the Kembles they can be toned down. however, the golden rule is buy a piano that you like from day one, not one you are going to have to alter. Get them to tone it down in the shop see if you like it - if you don't walk

Your best bet is to go for a good quality secondhand 5 10 years old. One of my clients got a secondhand Bluthner at a very good price from Cheltenham Piano Centre. Have a chat to this guy Tostevin Pianos
in Stoke-on-Trent 01782 617081 or Martin Locke 01614 426288

Barrie,

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 29 Dec 2007, 13:18

great thanks. I`ll look into that!

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 29 Dec 2007, 21:36

Well,

Met John – owner of Lincoln Piano centre – played:
Grotian Steinwegs – 2 diff ones
Pleyels
Yamaha U3 (2nd hand)
Boston - several
Zimmermann Z3 & Z1 (Bechstein manufactured)
Kemble (Mozart, Conservatoire)
Steinway grand (wow!)

Narrowed it down to the Conservatoire and either of the Zimmermann’s – going back on the 12th with Shelley (she stayed home today so I had plenty of time to faff round).

Returned to Clements and again tried the Sauter 114 custom and 116 Vega .

Have now played 4 diff Yamaha’s, and none of them did it for me – I’ll try a new one, but the Conservatoire showed the U3 a clean pair of heels in my view and humble opinion.

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 30 Dec 2007, 19:51

Further thoughts:
The Z1 and Z3 Zimmermann's are very clear yet not bright. They had amongst the nicest actions of the piano's I tried. The price is the issue, tho. I'm wrestling with paying either £4k or upto £6.75k. My reasoning is I'll keep what I get for a good long while, so am taking my time. Yamaha U series and kawai's K3 and K5 are not for me...

All of the below had a tone I liked. One of them may well be ruled out due to finish, but all are in the melting pot, so to speak.

My short list now looks something like this (cheapest to most expensive):

Kemble Conservatoire,
Sauter 114 custom,
Zimmermann Z3
Zimmermann Z1
Sauter 116 vega,

I'll keep you updated,

all the best.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 01 Jan 2008, 12:16

It's impressive that you're taking such care over choosing your new piano -

if only everyone did that!

I've never played the Sauter 116 vega - has anyone else got experience of them?

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 02 Jan 2008, 21:31

Hi all, I`ve been offered a Feurich piano, about 10 years old.
118 ish tall, or 3ft 8 and a half. for 2995. A colleague of yours Barrie, I think down in Wolverhampton.
Any thoughts on this as to whether it`s worth a trip when I go to Wales to look at Vogel at Stuart Jones?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 03 Jan 2008, 00:09

chrissydaboo wrote:Hi all, I`ve been offered a Feurich piano, about 10 years old.
118 ish tall, or 3ft 8 and a half. for 2995. A colleague of yours Barrie, I think down in Wolverhampton.
Any thoughts on this as to whether it`s worth a trip when I go to Wales to look at Vogel at Stuart Jones?

The trip to Stuart Jones should be worth your wile he should have a few to look at . if it is Paul you are going to see, that it must be a tip form Tostervins they prep most of Paul's good stuff and he is not expensive just a bit eccentric. I have not seen any modern Feurich so I can't comment on the quality but most like them. new F118 121cm retail at £9,450

Barrie,

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 03 Jan 2008, 00:47

Yes I think his name`s Paul! That`s helpful thanks!!

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 04 Jan 2008, 18:59

So - tomorrow brings forth the Land of Blunther, Irmler and more Souter(Headingly Piano's at Leeds)

&

Schimmel (at Forsyths of Manchester)!

Report will duly follow.

Am interested in the comments above re the Schimmel v the Yamaha - I've not taken to any Yamaha's or kawai's I've (crudely) played...

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 04 Jan 2008, 21:50

abc1337 wrote:So - tomorrow brings forth the Land of Blunther, Irmler and more Souter(Headingly Piano's at Leeds)

Well, the Headingley geezer drops enough hints on this forum so it's a good idea to check him out!

Can't believe you'll get much joy from an Irmler. Crap Polish offerings and little done to disguise the fact, or cooking Pearl River jobs if you're more fortunate to find the non-Europe versions. Blüthner's Haessler range is good though.

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 04 Jan 2008, 22:00

All depends on cost - no more that £6.5k...so its up to the dealers, dude

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 04 Jan 2008, 22:30

abc1337 wrote:So - tomorrow brings forth the Land of Blunther, Irmler and more Souter(Headingly Piano's at Leeds)
.

Wile your in Leeds try Besbrode Pianos Leeds They seem to have quite a wide selection of new pianos including Fenner Upright Piano.

Barrie,

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 06 Jan 2008, 00:00

Well...
Played two Kemble Conservatoire's, also a Yamaha U3 and Radius, plus an Irmler - no Blunthers within budget.

Played two Schimmels, the 116 and 120 international - very nice.

chewing over options...

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 06 Jan 2008, 17:37

What did you think of the Kemble versus the Schimmel 116?? Obviously more expensive for Schimmel, was that the satin wood finish in Forsyths?

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 06 Jan 2008, 18:56

I thought for around £4k the Kemble is a no-brainer - I liked all three of them I played (in diff venues) over Kawai and Yamaha pianos of similar price.

I liked both Schimmel 116's in Forsyth's, and they also allowed me to try a 120 which was also very nice. I prefered the action on either 116, and the sound of the 120.

Whether they are better than the Zimmermann 116 or 125's I tried in Lincoln is a moot point, and my decision making is being based around that.

For me its also about aftersales and also that I need to secure a nice piano but cannot get it into my house for a few months due to alterations - I'd sooner secure a nice example with a deposit to suit then get the house sorted, then move the piano in -so to speak. But I'm looking now as its sale time and also I understand with some makes there are price increases in March...

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 07 Jan 2008, 01:24

I`m glad you`re learning, but really enjoying; because I`m close to having a nervous breakdown about buying the wrong piano or remortgaging to buy the RIGHT ONE!

Is the zimmerman 116 a similar price to the Schimmel 116?

Going for a lie down . . . .

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 07 Jan 2008, 10:36

LIncoln Piano centre list the Z3 116cm at 6799, but obviously deals can be had.

John there has been very professional and courteous with me, and to be fair he has ticked the right boxes.

I'm off back there this sat, to try the Z3 and Z1 again...

I think at some stage you have to make the decision, but when spending this money i always do as much research as I can, and have tried no end of piano's in this price bracket. I've not gone 2nd hand, tho.

By all means if I can help any further, ask away.

Kind regards
andy

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 07 Jan 2008, 12:51

I`m glad you`re learning, but really enjoying; because I`m close to having a nervous breakdown about buying the wrong piano or remortgaging to buy the RIGHT ONE!

Don't get too stressed! There's no end of discussion over whether piano A has the edge over piano B, and let's face it, whatever you get, someone will tell you that you've made the wrong choice.

Your short-list looks very good and I don't think you would be disappointed by any of them.

I went through the same agonies before I bought my piano and eventually I cut my losses, bought one that sounded fine and tried to play the damn thing better. Unfortunately, THAT'S where the nervous breakdown really started for me!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 07 Jan 2008, 15:41

I've kept my nose out so far, but I have to say that I really like the Zimmermans and am seriously contemplating buying one myself. And I work with different pianos all day every day and have done for 25 years.
Right, that's my two pennorth!

chrissydaboo · Post by **chrissydaboo** » 07 Jan 2008, 21:06

Well guys, I feel strangely liberated! I`ve been to look at Zimmermans today, nice but not for me ( a bit too much! )also not keen on the Petrof range. Then I sat down at a 1994 Yam U3 AS a piano I have long since written off. I really liked it. I almost tried not to like it, but besides a little toning needed possibly ( bass range ) , it was as good a piano as I`ve played! Well I think it was. Maybe the Schimmel was a little better, but twice the cash.
It`s a 5 mill serial number with a sostenuto. priced at 2900. I think I and it are sold but what do you think? Also Can I put some foam inside it as a practice measure or fit some muffler?

abc1337 · Post by **abc1337** » 07 Jan 2008, 21:44

chrissy,
If you have found a piano you like at a price you are prepared to pay, then subject to the advice from the knowledgeable folk here you know the answer...

Just also shows that piano's are as individual as their owners!