No loose stools just wobbly legs

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 03 Nov 2007, 13:33

I am currently undertaking the restoration of a baby grand piano that probably should have been thrown out.

Anyway, I am not a piano technitian, I don't play the piano, I simply seem to bite off more than I can chew.

Suffice it to say, I have stripped the entire instrument down to a bare case sitting on its legs. My first restoratative act is to get the "slack" out of the legs.

There seems to be an awful lot of movement in this thing. Having never sat at a grand of any sort, I am not sure what the acceptable limits are for this lateral movement which is being caused by the tolerances of the joints between the legs and the case have degraded over time.

I believe that it is imperative that I get this right before I even start to consider refinishing the case and legs, and definately before I consider refitting the frame.

If anyone could assist it would be greatly appreciated.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 03 Nov 2007, 21:10

The legs are either not original or they've been oddly chopped about to appear more recent than they are. The piano should have fatter round or hexagonal tapered legs.

Before you do anything, what do you propose to do with that frame? Not only has it cracked, but the two 'halves' don't align. Get that bit wrong and it'll implode as soon as you tension up the strings.

As an aside, I hate that model of grand, but I certainly salute you in your determination. And you do seem to realise that it'll be near-worthless even when complete.
Fair play!

Love the FB btw!!

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 03 Nov 2007, 23:17

Wow, where do I begin.

You reply as though you have some experience with this maker, and therefore any insight will be greatly appreciated.

The frame has gone to not only an expert foundry and welder but the bloke handling the project is also a classically trained pianist.

If it means making new legs....well....so be it, just one more thing to do.

Thanks for the help.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 04 Nov 2007, 08:33

Good luck with the metalwork! If your man can stitch a block on a HEMI he may have a chance, but it's stitching as well as welding that's needed here. In the UK we use Metalock who employ a cold stitching process:
http://www.metalock.co.uk/castingrepairs.asp

The legs can be reproduced by Barry Caradine here in Suffolk. You may need to send him one of the existing ones to obtain the correct thread (assuming the butcher who modernised the legs on yours has left the fitment standard) and careful measurements since the two front legs will probably be shorter than the tail one, but this is not always the case.

The style is a generic German tapered hex leg similar to this.

Barry can be contacted here:
http://www.caradine.co.uk/

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 04 Nov 2007, 10:19

I reckon if I could get hold of 1 I could cobble up 3.

Being in Australia and as many have told me working with a piano that is already worthless, the chances of me sending bits off to the UK are non-existent.

The other issue is that we (The leader of the opposition and myself) seem to prefer the square leg over the round/hexagonal legs of the pianos of the era as it gives the instrument a neater and cleaner line, which is probably why this was done in the first place.

At this point in time my plan is to simply make, probably using thin ply a plate to place between the top of the leg and the capital (I think that is what it is called).

This should remove any slop in the join.

If anyone has a better ideas I am all ears.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 04 Nov 2007, 12:05

Big Bird wrote:
At this point in time my plan is to simply make, probably using thin ply a plate to place between the top of the leg and the capital (I think that is what it is called).

This should remove any slop in the join.

This is standard practice with round or hex/octagonal legs, but with square ones on the same screw thread you run the risk of legs at odd angles to the casework, so you need to be accurate about thickness of your shims!

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 04 Nov 2007, 12:26

All the shims should take up is the gap between the top of the leg and the capital that allows for this movement.

The threads will then be under geater friction forming a better join.

Anyway...it will be a couple of weeks before I am able to test the theory as I am working on other things at the moment.

I will cirtainly keep you posted

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 04 Nov 2007, 18:14

Big Bird wrote: I will cirtainly keep you posted

I will be more interested to see if you can fix up that frame. I reckon it could well all go bang when you put the tension on it. A Hagspiel is likely to have a low tension scale so you may just get away with it, but I don't think a welding technique will be effective on damage of that magnitude.

In terms of what it'll cost you even if you don't factor in the cost of your own time I reckon you'd still be better off buying an intact one (and a better sounding one than a Hagspiel!) and getting on with the business of playing it.

Spend the time you'd waste on this on a new classic motor!

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 04 Nov 2007, 21:15

I think I have enough cars at the moment, keeping in mind that there is another FB I am still yet to take any photoes of and the cars the leader of the opposition and myself use for daily transport.

Anyway, prior to us purchasing this piano I knew full well that it was going to be a challenge for so many reasons. However it was bought as I was looking for a project. That's right I wanted to buy a completely cactus piano to give me something to do.

When we inspected it, it was only the top treble keys that would not play due to the fracture. In my little mind I surmized that this section of the frame would be under alot less tension than the base end as the strings were shorter and not nearly as heavy.

My wife (who has had some training) said that she found the action acceptable and I was happy to discover upon its removal, nothing to report in the way of sticking keys or broken parts.

Please keep in mind that 1) I am not a piano technitian and 2) I am not a piano player.

I don't really care what this things retail value is once done as I (unlike a dealer) am not doing it so that it can be sold, this is simply my latest Everest.

Prior to me removing all of the strings it had a really healthy base section and as you worked up the keyboard there was still plenty of life left in the old girl. No strange buzzing noises coming from the soundboard, no mechanical gremlins to keep in mind.

I am fully aware that I am up for a few dollars in replacing bits and pieces, but I just don't care. Every hobby has a cost, so what is the difference here? Except for the fact that most lay people will not go anywhere near the innards of their instrument, let alone rip one apart with only the hope of getting it back together.

Now...the welding

This is being handled by a mob that specializes in the repair of machinery to major players in the mining, petroleum and other heavy industrial industries who's equipment is under constant heavy point, momentary and consistent loads.

I reckon if anyone can fix this thing.......

I will cirtainly keep you posted.

And finally.....it is only a waste of money if I learn nothing from the exersise

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 04 Nov 2007, 21:31

Big Bird wrote:
When we inspected it, it was only the top treble keys that would not play due to the fracture. In my little mind I surmized that this section of the frame would be under alot less tension than the base end as the strings were shorter and not nearly as heavy.

No!!

A piano scale is equal tension across the sections of the scale, with only the bass bichords and singles often about 10% higher tension than the steels. Those short strings are exerting the same tension as the heavier steel ones. Ask yourself why it broke in the first place if that was an area of low tension! The strings may be shorter and thinner, but think of the pitch that they sound at!!!

The frame broke either because of an impact or more likely because German metallurgy at the turn of the century was utter crap. Even top quality makers like Bechstein got it wrong, and their frames are notorious for fractures. I've never seen a frame that has broken apart like yours mended effectively.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do the project per se, but I'd be very surprised if it's successful (and of course I detest Hagspiels!). I wish you all the best with it and I'll offer whatever advice that I can!

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 05 Nov 2007, 12:27

Thanks for that. now that you point it out it does make sense regarding the tension.

Now as far as the Hagspiel goes, why do you dislike them so much?

For me it was a matter of it being the only cheap baby grand available that day. It's not like a turned down a Steinwey or a Bluther.

How it happened was as follows:

I was toying with the idea of purchasing an old upright for abut $100 bucks off ebay, and kept on sying to myself that I should do some research before buying.

So I see this walnut baby grand on a Friday evening and I just quacked. Called the bloke who said I could come around and have a look at it on Sunday.

So away I went, I must have spent some 40 hours on line learning as much as I could.

I visited a piano dealer just to have a look inside a modern piano.

This thing seemed to operate like a normal everyday piano, so for the princley price he was asking I decided to take a crack.

So...I have no reason to hate this thing...yet anyway.

Maybe if I can get this thing back to its former glory, I might just buy me a Steinwey or Bluther or some other fancy shmancy piano.

You see I am looking at this project the way a goldsmith loocks at a piece of jewelery. Firstly make one out of silver as it is very cheap to work with.

So far, my project is very cheap to work with, and if it totals $4K i can live with that. Heaps cheaper than alot of other maybe's I have tackled.

So you continue hating Hagspiels (for whatever reason) I must admit it is exciting to read that there are not only people out there that know of them, but have obviously have had enough experience for them to have formed an opinion of them.

ANd given enough time, we will see which one of us will be eating crow.

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 31 Dec 2007, 10:00

After much debating and deliberation I have moved the case into my garage and believe I have found a solution to the wobbly leg issue.

I haven't posted any photoes yet, so not much point in looking at the website.

Each leg is secured with a cast iron M & F fitting that probably over the years has beome increasingly slack. Whether this is due to the piano being moved too much or just from general wear and tear I can't tell you.

Anyway, I have made a 4mm plywood plate that matches the top of each leg, and due to the now increased pressure placed on these fittings (the only way to get the legs on and off is now with a rubber mallet) the movement between the top of the leg and the Capital has been irradicated.

My next job is now to build a bench to place the case on so that I can stripp all of the old laquer off and start to paint it up.

As discussed previously the chosen colour is BA Falcon Phantom Purple due to the veneer being too far gone to relaquer and way to expensive to do an entire piano that most of you here reckon isn't worth the cost of transporting.

Happy New Year to you all &.....

GAME ON!!!

david g · Post by **david g** » 31 Dec 2007, 20:52

Have been following developments with interest. Wish you well with the project. Must say though that the piano would look so much better with original-style legs!

Big Bird · Post by **Big Bird** » 31 Dec 2007, 23:46

Probably, but I am not sure if it is worth spending the money.

If I am not going to go to the expense of re-veneering, I am cirtainly not going to have legs made.