Twang

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 20 Sep 2007, 13:22

Last week the B-natural above middle C on our Yam C7 started buzzing, a bit like a sympathetic vibration but it was definitely from the string, not from anything nearby. I also noticed it seemed to be damping unevenly with a weird twang. Displaying a stunning sense of timing it began to do this during a master class with one of the professors from the RAM.

We tried moving the music desk etc but it was clearly coming from the strings/action.

My tuner came in on Monday by which time the problem had disappeared (which made me look like a right crown and anchor). He couldn't find anything wrong at all. Any ideas what it could be?

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 24 Sep 2007, 18:54

It might be an agraffe noise, or, less likely, from the bridge pin. If the string shifted even slightly the noise would go away. This might account for the "leaking" damper. Are you quite sure it is not a harmonic noise ("sympathetic vibration")? These can be very deceptive as to thier direction and the source from which they emmanate.
Transient problems, noises in particular, are maddening because they show up when you are least able to deal with them, and when you are prepared to exterminate them they go into hiding and cannot be found.

Tom Tuner

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 25 Sep 2007, 22:30

Thank you for your reply, Tom. I'm not familiar with the term 'agraffe noise' - please could you enlighten me?!

It's driving me nuts (as the man with the steering wheel sticking out of his trousers said to the doctor) because I can hear it clearly every time I play the B-natural, as can every other pianist who plays the thing - most of whom are very experienced.

It's stopped being a very disruptive 'rattle' and gone back to being a kind of metallic background noise whenever the note is played. It also effects the C-natural next to it, but to a lesser extent. I'm certain it's not from outside the piano as the instrument was moved to a different part of the building over the summer months and the metallic sound was still there. The rattle/buzz thing only happened once (at the master class - great). It did sound like that noise you get when the music tray vibrates, but it definitely wasn't that as we took the tray off.

I've had two tuners look at it but it's still there and it really spoils the instrument for us. Just don't know what to do now. To summarize, my position is basically

with quite a lot of

and a resigned kind of

but mostly

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Sep 2007, 23:08

Could be something simple like a staple from a sheet of music caught underneath the capo bar rattling on the strings......

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 26 Sep 2007, 16:59

capo bar

Don't tell me, I'm going to find out what one is myself!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 26 Sep 2007, 18:30

Like a tapas bar, but you have to wear a cap...

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 26 Sep 2007, 19:18

Piano Guy may well be right, if there is a capo the string may have worn a groove in it, and that may cause the noise. The capo tasto or d'astro is immediately behind the wrest-pins, looking toward the tail of the piano. Or, there may be a crack in the bridge and the bridge pin is leaning over. Agraffes are the brass studs with three holes in them, just beyond the wrest-pins. If the string hole is badly machined or or is worn the string can jangle around in it.
If the piano is still under warrenty get the dealer on to it. C7's are pretty nice instruments; it's too bad to have one disabled with an annoying problem like this.

Tom Tuner

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Sep 2007, 19:46

Tom Tuner wrote:Piano Guy may well be right, if there is a capo the string may have worn a groove in it, and that may cause the noise. The capo tasto or d'astro is immediately behind the wrest-pins, looking toward the tail of the piano.

More than likely it'll just be a small foreign object resting on the strings, out of sight under the capo.

Yamahas rarely have problems with dodgy bridge pins or similar horrors.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 26 Sep 2007, 21:22

Many thanks for your advice - it's much appreciated. I'll have a look tomorrow to see if I can find anything lurking. It's such a good piano that I'd like to have it sounding its best!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 27 Sep 2007, 23:33

I couldn't find anything to account for the noise. Perhaps there are just some problems which no technician can solve.

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 28 Sep 2007, 18:31

Fiddlesticks! There are only noises for which a cause has not yet been found. About 30 years' worth of experience is a help in rooting out some of them. A reasonably systematic approach, rather than thrashing about at random, is also useful.
The C7 is one of Yamaha's better efforts, but even so is not immune to defects. There was a similar case here at a recording studio. A suggested rule-of-thumb: take nothing for granted.

Tom Tuner

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 28 Sep 2007, 22:50

Sorry, I realise my comment sounds defeatist. I don't live on the UK mainland and my local tuners have been unable to sort the problem out. Consequently I feel completely powerless to do anything about it

Feels like I'm stuck with this bloody twang and it'll never get sorted. It's just SO FRUSTRATING.

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 01 Oct 2007, 17:21

Well don't give up yet. If you can pin it down to one specific string by successively muting them out one at a time (with your finger-tip if nothing else comes to hand), it may help a technician in identifying the cause. If it is just the one string, push it around a bit; retune that one. Some of your remarks lead me to wonder whether there isn't a damper wire getting into the act. Not being able to hear it makes identification and diagnosis at long-range a bit of a shot-in-the-dark.

Tom Tuner

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 02 Oct 2007, 11:23

Not being able to hear it makes identification and diagnosis at long-range a bit of a shot-in-the-dark.

Made me think - maybe I could post it as an audio file. Might be worth a go. I'm at the stage where I'll try anything!

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 02 Oct 2007, 19:34

I can't give you my technical class on piano noises, that requires a chalkboard and a rigged piano for demonstration purposes. But, since you are getting no relief, let us consider some diagnostics you can apply yourself. With the dampers at rest, strum the strings to be sure that the dampers are in fact all seated. A "leaky" damper may be quite distant from the apparent note you hear, in the bass, say. When struming, do you hear any "zings" or "pings"? That would indicate a damper wire. Slowly depress the sustain pedal and watch the dampers. Do they begin to lift immediately you start to press the pedal? The pedal rod to the damper tray or its lever is set too high and the dampers may be "ghosting". Look for damper heads that rotate or lean or move to the side as they rise. Pump the pedal up and down rapidly and watch for dampers that lag behind the others which may be due to tight damper wire bushings or sluggish under-levers. Hold the sustain pedal down and depress the middle pedal. Release the sustain pedal. Pump the sustain pedal again. You are looking for sostinuto tabs that may be hanging up or jammed. Note whether any liquids have been spilled on the damper felts. Are any damper wires close enough to a string to contact it or vice versa? Note that a string may vibrate further than you expect.
If the problem is affecting adjecent notes there may be a foreigh object on the sound-board or amongst the damper under-levers. With an inspection mirror and penlight check under the frame where it covers the sd.bd. There are further possibilities, but the are a bit of a stretch. If any problems with the dampers do turn up you will have to have your technician deal with them. I recommend that you not try to pull a grand action yourself.
If individually muting out the strings of the afflicted note narrowed the problem to a particular string, then for present purposes you can mute it out. At least it will cease to bother and no one will be the wiser. Well, "mute it out" means that you hope it it not the centre string of three so you can wedge something between it and the adjacent string of the neighboring note.
We can try the audio file if you can get a good recording. My experiences of doing this on the 'net are not encouraging, but might be worth a try. Piano faults on commercial recordings are identifiable enough.

Tom Tuner

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 03 Oct 2007, 15:02

Tom, thanks very much for taking the time to provide such a detailed answer - I'm most grateful. I have found a good technician who has agreed to come over to look at the piano so hopefully the problem will be rectified. I will try using an inspection mirror though, just in case it's something straightforward. Please be assured that there is no way on God's Wide Earth I would ever try to remove the action myself! The very thought brings on a cold sweat!

Thanks again for your advice.

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 04 Oct 2007, 19:04

Well I' pleased (and relieved) that someone will come to take care of this in person. Given the notoriously poor communications between pianists and technicians it is hard to get together on what a noise sounds like when one is attempting to describe it. There must be a cause since the pianodid not (presumably) always make unwanted sounds. If it did it ought not to have left the factory or the dealer while doing so. So something must have changed. You know the piano, so perhaps you can identify what has affected it.

Tom Harr

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 04 Oct 2007, 23:33

You know the piano, so perhaps you can identify what has affected it.

I only wish I could! It's a mystery to me. The strangest thing is how it can be really bad one day and much less pronounced the next. It's a school piano so it gets moved around the hall a bit, but not that much and it has a set of chunky steamroller wheels so I don't think that's the problem.
I'm VERY fussy about who gets to play it so it's not like it gets misused.

Anyway, I'm really pleased it's going to get expert attention and it'll be interesting to know what's caused the problem!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 05 Oct 2007, 07:06

It's not the usual Yamaha trouble of the locator bracket for the top (It's screwed to the inside rim of the piano at the treble end near the curve) working loose is it? Can cause nasty noises!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 05 Oct 2007, 11:37

It's not the usual Yamaha trouble of the locator bracket for the top (It's screwed to the inside rim of the piano at the treble end near the curve) working loose is it?

Interesting - I'll take a look at lunchtime!
[/quote]

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 05 Oct 2007, 17:54

Sometimes the hinges on the lid can buzz a bit; make sure they're tight against the piano, or get someone to push against them as you play the offending note. If they're the posh type with little balls on the non-business end of the hinge pin, those balls can also become loose & vibrate.

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 05 Oct 2007, 18:19

Something must have changed. The note(s) did not always do this, and the others do not. There is an anomaly somewhere.
Has the piano been moved, dropped, subjected to environmental extremes, abused, taken part in "prepared piano" recitals, played at a party, or otherwise placed in any situation which could have had an effect on it?
When you do find out, please let us know in case this happens to someone else.

Tom Tuner

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 07 Oct 2007, 00:09

I can't think of anything that could account for it. I thought quite early on that there was something different about that particularly note but nobody else picked up on it and I put it down to me being over-anxious about a new instrument. It's in the last few weeks that it's got much worse and others have commented on it.

It's in a school hall so I can't monitor it all the time but only the more experieced pianists have access to it. If anyone attempted to 'prepare' it in the John Cage sense I would 'prepare' their faces with the aid of my fist.

The technician is visiting over half-term (i.e. last week of October) and I will be sure to tell you where the gremlin was!

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 11 Oct 2007, 18:25

Well, it is a significant datum that the problem was noticed by you nearly from new, and that it is becoming worse. Either the foreign object is migrating, the string termination is continuing to deteriorate, or the damper is on the verge of ceasing to work at all.

Tom Tuner

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 11 Oct 2007, 19:31

is the zing there when you use the shift pedal

Barrie,

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 12 Oct 2007, 18:46

...and take note of the weather on twangy days, in case it's exacerbated by humidity/dryness/heat/cold.

Robak · Post by **Robak** » 12 Oct 2007, 19:39

Here's another possible cause. Has the room got extremely hot prior to the buzz/twang happening? With the help of a willing twangy note player, get underneath the piano and gently push against the belly bars (ribs) which are glued to the underside of the soundboard.(They are strips of wood about 1" wide). If the noise stops whilst you are pushing one of the bars and twangy note player is still repeatedly stricking the offending note, then one of at least two problems may be occuring 1) loose item sitting on top surface of soundboard (mirror as mentioned previously) 2) belly bar slightly unglued ... eek! Number two is very rare but has happened to a 1 month old Steinway 'A'! Clients elderly father turned heating up to 32deg! (Scary huh?).
Save a wine bottle cork just in case and ask me by PM

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 12 Oct 2007, 22:04

Many thanks for all your advice. I haven't had a chance to get near the piano for any length of time this week - apart from to accompany Jonah-Man Jazz. I'm livin' the dream...

I'm doing some practice over the weekend so I shall try to find a wealthy divorcee who's willing to help explore the adhesive quality of my belly bars (Hey, has your belly bar become unglued or are you just pleased to see me? etc etc).

If nothing else, this experience has certainly enriched my vocabulary!