Steinway casting dates?

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » 05 Sep 2007, 21:16

I have a rough photo showing the frame/harp of an old Steinway grand. On the front edge (near the keyboard) of the frame are two cast numbers - one above the other. Both are definitely part of the casting, not added later.

It's hard to read, but it seems to be two dates - both 1877. Is this a good reference for dates? I've only seen inked dates on later pianos....

Thanks for your help!

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 06 Sep 2007, 09:21

I have never come across casting dates on Steinways, but they often had dates of patents, in which case the piano was made after an 1877 patent. Having said that, I am aware of patents in 1876 and 1878, but not 1877. If you have a serial number, this should provide a date.

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » 06 Sep 2007, 09:39

Unfortunately, we can't see any serial number in the photo. I suppose these would be Patent numbers then... maybe that will narrow it down a little.

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 06 Sep 2007, 10:04

No, not numbers but years of their patents.

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » 06 Sep 2007, 16:52

Thanks, yes I understand that. But certainly if these are numbers of patents it will be AFTER that year for certain, and possibly the casting changed to LATER patent years at some point? I have no idea, just thought someone may know if so... or if these patent numbers disappear at some time.

Thanks for your help - it MAY be "1878" (too hard to read from the lack of detail in the pic) which would correspond with what you noted.

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » 06 Sep 2007, 17:15

Good guidance! I found this on the Steinway patent numbers site: While the year numbers are hard to read, the photo is legible enough to see it says "June 13" and "Aug 1"... so:

C.F. Theodor Steinway "Improvement in Piano-Fortes"; nose bolt having removable nut Jun 13, 1876 178,565

C.F. Theodor Steinway "Improvement in Piano Sound-Boards"; soundboard bind bar Aug 01, 1876 180,671

Now I'll have to see if this casting number changes at some point....

Tom Tuner · Post by **Tom Tuner** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:59

I have a very dim recollection that you might find a date cast in the tail of the plate. I don't recall these being helpful in dating the piano, however, as the casting may have been in stock for some time before being installed.

Tom Tuner

Post by **Bill Kibby** » 07 Sep 2007, 00:01

As you can read at the Datemarks link on www.pianogen.org frames were cast in bulk, and might easily remain in stock for 5 or 6 years. The whole concept of obtaining a precise date for a piano is flawed, and there are various pitfalls, not least of which is that fact that the manufacturing process from components to completion can be so long. The following scenario is an illustration of the kind of problems which can often occur when attempting to place a single date on a piano:

1900 The iron frame is designed, ordered in bulk, and cast with a datemark.
1902 A patent is applied for.
1904 The action is manufactured, and stamped with a number.
1905 The keys are completed, and dated on a label.
1906 The piano is completed, and stamped with a number.
1908 The piano reaches the retailer.
1911 The piano is sold.

What is the date of this piano?

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » 07 Sep 2007, 04:18

Yes I saw that page - without a serial number we may never know.The piano is long since gone, but this helps us place it into a LIKELY century!