Hello,
I am looking to buy an upright piano for my 7 year old daughter. Various people have recommended Yamaha or Kawai, but having tried some in shops, we don't really like their sound all that much. My daughter's favourite so far is a reconditioned Welmar (114 cm high) from the early 70's, but apparently this has been a school piano, so may have been heavily used. Its action has been reconditioned, the casework has been repolished and it has new felts on the hammers. It comes with a one year guarantee. I know nothing about pianos and am a bit worried about buying second-hand, especially an ex-school piano. Is there any reason to worry, or should the reconditioning have sorted it all out? Can I reasonably expect this piano to last through all the grades and ideally give my daughter a lifetime of piano playing pleasure?
Other pianos we are considering are a new Petrof 116, or a new Irmler Professional 122 (made in Poland), i.e. the bottom of the Petrof range or the top of the Irmler upright range - they are similar in price (both between 2500 and 3000 pounds). How do these two pianos compare? Are they good quality, or should I really buy Yamaha or Kawai?
Finally, I am also interested in the Chavanne 120, made in France (but haven't heard one yet). Does anyone know these pianos? The Chavanne website provides a lot of information about the quality of their 125 upright piano, but says very little about their 120 piano. From what I understand (my French is not all that good), the 120 has "Renner hammers", while the 125 has "Renner action" - does this mean the same?
I would be very grateful for any advice.
Many thanks,
Hilde
please advise: Petrof, Irmler, Chavanne or used Welmar?
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
Firstly the Welmar. It may well be a very decent piano, but the extent and the quality of the work carried out is crucial. An ex school piano should ideally have new hammers fitted as well as a comprehensive overhaul. Most school pianos were supplied in a chunky oak case, so this also should have been 'domesticated' to make it attractive. The age of the piano can be discovered by taking the first two digits of the serial number which will be on the top right hand side of the frame. 63024 equates to 1963, 80421 to 1980 etc, so yours will start 70***. It is a very good idea to get a tuner to check how well all the restoration work has been done. A good Welmar is a beautifully built bit of kit; expensive when new and produces a good sound. Built like a Hummvee too. They were subject to variance in quality though, so there are also a few old munters knocking about.
The Petrof must be fitted with a German Renner action rather than the home-grown Detoa for it to be a contender. No, the Renner hammers v Renner action thing means what it says. The cheaper piano will have an inferior action fitted. With a Petrof it's always worth paying more for a Renner, so the same will apply to the Chavanne, a piano of which I have little experience. They are made in Toulouse, France, but there is no UK importer, so warranty could be a problem.
The Irmler is OK, but Polish build quality lags behind Czech. The pianos sound fine, but there are some dubious practices going on in the way the casework is put together, and the actions are often unbranded looking suspiciously like Detoa items. They usually fit Abel hammers which are IMHO even better than the Renners, so these account for the tone, and give the sound quality a boost. It's only a personal phobia, but I'm always suspicious about any piano which is screwed together with Torx bolts. Smacks of Ikeaesque cheapness to me.
Only go for a Yamaha if you can afford a recent U1 or better. Look for a serial number of 5 million. Only buy a new Kawai, they've gone through a massive improvement in desirability over the last 3-4 years. Old ones are only to be considered if very cheap.
If you don't like Yamaha or Kawai, seek out one of the best Chinese makes such as the superb Brodmann and the latest version of the Wendl & Lung. Both offer a 121 or 122 size piano and you should get either for around 2.5K.
The Petrof must be fitted with a German Renner action rather than the home-grown Detoa for it to be a contender. No, the Renner hammers v Renner action thing means what it says. The cheaper piano will have an inferior action fitted. With a Petrof it's always worth paying more for a Renner, so the same will apply to the Chavanne, a piano of which I have little experience. They are made in Toulouse, France, but there is no UK importer, so warranty could be a problem.
The Irmler is OK, but Polish build quality lags behind Czech. The pianos sound fine, but there are some dubious practices going on in the way the casework is put together, and the actions are often unbranded looking suspiciously like Detoa items. They usually fit Abel hammers which are IMHO even better than the Renners, so these account for the tone, and give the sound quality a boost. It's only a personal phobia, but I'm always suspicious about any piano which is screwed together with Torx bolts. Smacks of Ikeaesque cheapness to me.
Only go for a Yamaha if you can afford a recent U1 or better. Look for a serial number of 5 million. Only buy a new Kawai, they've gone through a massive improvement in desirability over the last 3-4 years. Old ones are only to be considered if very cheap.
If you don't like Yamaha or Kawai, seek out one of the best Chinese makes such as the superb Brodmann and the latest version of the Wendl & Lung. Both offer a 121 or 122 size piano and you should get either for around 2.5K.
used Welmar pianos
Thank you very much for your advice - that's very helpful.
We may be having a look at a few other used Welmar pianos as well. As you say that quality has been variable, are there any specific build periods that were particularly good or bad?
Many thanks,
Hilde
We may be having a look at a few other used Welmar pianos as well. As you say that quality has been variable, are there any specific build periods that were particularly good or bad?
Many thanks,
Hilde
Not especially. Examples could be wildly different even with consecutive serial numbers! Make sure it's got a Schwander, Langer or Renner action (although Renner is very rare in a Welmar) and not a BPA action which will probably be unbranded. A few really good Welmars were produced in the late 1980s, but it's the 1960s Welmars which were generally thought to be the best, although these are all getting tired now. There were a few Renner equipped Harrods-badged Special Editions with green painted frames but these are even rarer than standard fare.
Avoid the 1960s poverty model which had no fall (lid) over the keys and the '70s-'80s budget model, the fall on which is pivoted on pins like a grand piano. Try and go for a decent sized piano such as the A2 or later 126.
Avoid the 1960s poverty model which had no fall (lid) over the keys and the '70s-'80s budget model, the fall on which is pivoted on pins like a grand piano. Try and go for a decent sized piano such as the A2 or later 126.
Hi PG and All,PianoGuy wrote:The age of the piano can be discovered by taking the first two digits of the serial number which will be on the top right hand side of the frame. 63024 equates to 1963, 80421 to 1980 etc, so yours will start 70***.
As per my other thread, I was looking around for a U1 or U3.
I came across this Welmar 125 model with serial number 107747.
I used your method above to calculate the age, but there seem to be one extra digit.
According to the ebay post, it says it is a 17yrs old piano.
The owner is looking for min 1.6k British Pounds.
Would a brand new U1 be better than this anytime?
Thanks
Jack
http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/Welmar-Upright-E ... dZViewItem