Boston GP218

[pockpock]

My local Steinway dealer in Wales has what seems a very nice Boston GP218, ten years old in excellent condition, which he will service. It has been used by a professional who has given up. He says the size is equivalent to a Steinway Model C (current new price 68K)What do you experts think of the GP218 (a size no longer made)? And what would a reasonable price be? It will be a squash to fit it into my modest bungalow (along with the three manual Viscount organ). But the umphh from the bass of the big model seems to put it in a different league from the smaller grands which might seem mure suited to the limited space; I am tempted.

[Gill the Piano]

I have to say that I have yet to meet a tuner who likes the Bostons; general opinion seems to be that you'd be better off (in every sense of the word) with an honest-to-God Kawai... How much are they asking for it? And have you tried the Kawai equivalents yet? I'm not well up on prices, but Barrie or Piano Guy will no doubt be along in a minute...!

[pockpock]

Thanks Gill. Since posting I have found in the 2006/7 supplement to The Piano Book it says "In 2005 Boston replaced its 7ft 2 model GP-218 with a newly redesigned 7ft 1 in model GP-215 grand. The company says that a modified rim shape and bracing, increased string length in the mid treble and other technical changes have reulted in a piano with better mid-range and treble sustain and more bite to the bass". So are these deficienies serious? OK the asking price is 14K pounds. A brand new GP-215 is also on offer at 20K. I note your point about Kawais: the 7ft Kawai is the RX-6: 38K new according to the 06/07 piano book. I can just about afford the 14K. The argument is that at 10 years it is nicely 'run in' but with plenty of years of life left. at age 53, 20-30 years should see me out. A second hand BIG piano for the same price as a new smaller grand. But is Gill right? Are the Boston's really that hard to tune? According to the Piano Book there is a difference between the material used for the action parts; ABS plastic in Kawais and wood in Bostons - and the plastic is more stable. Would this account for Gill's point? Larry fine concludes 'Few other differences stood out as being significant and the technicians generally liked the Boston grands very much'. Barrie and PianoGuy where are you?

[Barrie Heaton]

Not up on prices - like you I am not a big fan..... but it all depends on what you are comparing it with, the problem is you do tend to compare them with the YC and that is the problem. Yet; the other big players tend to uses dedicated factory's for their lesser makes not factory's used by other known makes. However, I have yet to find one that the duplex scaling in in tune or even close

But their owners tend to be in love with them and at the end of the day that's what it is all about

Barrie,

[Otto]

FWIW, I've had to 'silence' the majority of my duplex strings on my Steinway otherwise it becomes impossible (and that's in a room 20x30x10). It's just a bit of felt that threads up and down through the strings.

I found that I kept stopping because I thought I could hear the telephone ringing when the duplex was active!

I've had to mess about with the balance between the piano and the acoustics in the room, but now have it set up for all the romantic slush I like to play (Beethoven to Poulenc). To be honest it seems to me that if you like the feel and sound of a particular piano, you can successfully build on it quite easily to suit you and the way that you like to play.

Getting a really good technician to help you will pay dividends.

[PianoGuy]

But is Gill right? Are the Boston's really that hard to tune? According to the Piano Book there is a difference between the material used for the action parts; ABS plastic in Kawais and wood in Bostons - and the plastic is more stable. Would this account for Gill's point? Larry fine concludes 'Few other differences stood out as being significant and the technicians generally liked the Boston grands very much'. Barrie and PianoGuy where are you?

Just shows how American technicians, minds addled and ears blighted by shite Baldwins and Kimballs will like just about anything!

Seriously though, Bostons have never done it for me. I prefer a standard Kawai of the latest series. The action differences wouldn't count for tuning stability, it's just that older Kawais were never very good on this point. As far as I can see, Bostons are based on outdated Kawai technology and are very expensive for what you get. They're not totally unpleasant but you can do better.

[pockpock]

Thank you for those replies. There is a trade off required here: with a budget of say 15K pounds I could have either a small, new grand, or a big (7 ft) second hand grand. Anything ten years or more old will be based on out of date technology. Is the added value of a big powerful Ferrari worth the downside that it has an out of date engine design? PG's reply seems to suggest the downside would apply even if I were looking at 10 year old Kawai vs new Kawai.

[Barrie Heaton]

FWIW, I've had to 'silence' the majority of my duplex strings on my Steinway otherwise it becomes impossible (and that's in a room 20x30x10). It's just a bit of felt that threads up and down through the strings.

Steinways get a lot of bleed through form the Capo scaling, which can be very displeasing. The model D in Blackburn KGH looks like someone after a bad days shaving bits of red felt stuck in the capo and duplex not by me BTW that’s S&S handy work.

Schimmel pianos have the same problem in small rooms and some of their uprights have a very nasty shrill form the string between the tuning pins and the pressure bar a bit of scotch tape works wonders in that area as a quick fix.

Yet the Vogel has not got this problem on the uprights


Barrie,

[Otto]

There is a trade off required here: with a budget of say 15K pounds I could have either a small, new grand, or a big (7 ft) second hand grand. Anything ten years or more old will be based on out of date technology.

Since I started playing in the 1950's, I've not noticed any leaps in technology at all. Silly ideas like using plastic in place of felt and wood have come and gone, and other than the odd piano maker like Wayne Stuart in Australia, I'm not that convinced that the difference between a new piano and one thirty years old is anything other than wear.

The metals used in the strings, frame and pins might be a bit more consistent these days, but I don't suppose you would notice the difference.

My piano was buit in 1985 and is now on its third set of hammers from new. It is certainly the best suited piano for me that I've ever played. I certainly wouldn't contemplate changing it for a new one. May I suggest that a comparing pianos is much closer to comparing decent clarets or burgundies than Ferrari Testosterones.

[hammer man]

As a technician I dislike Bostons, they are just sold on the back of the Steinway design. I agree with Gill buy a Kawai, a much better piano.

[PianoGuy]

T PG's reply seems to suggest the downside would apply even if I were looking at 10 year old Kawai vs new Kawai.

Yeah.

New Kawais range from the half-decent to the excellent.

10 year old Kawais range from the utter shite to the lacklustre.

[pockpock]

Thanks for your comments: I get the message that the problem with Bostons is that they are based on a Steinway design [not sure why this is a bad thing rather than a good] and that they use out of date Kawai technology - and that the Kawai technology has improved with the most recent series. [though one poster disputes that there has been any improvement in technology generally in recent decades]. My dilemma remains: I can have a BIG 7 foot piano with the power and sustained bass notes for 14K pounds, because it is second hand and ten years old and therefore bears these deficiencies. If I were to use the same money to buy a new Kawai it would be a much smaller model with less 'umph'. Are the deficencies great enough to make a smaller model the better buy? Or indeed, does the small size of my room in any case negate any advantage from a powerful instrument?

[Barrie Heaton]

Thanks for your comments: I get the message that the problem with Bostons is that they are based on a Steinway design [not sure why this is a bad thing rather than a good]

That is not the problem its just the price v product - the money spent on a new Kawai would be money better spent in most of the piano trades eyes However, I have never yet met a client who is not enthusiastic about their Boston and make the point that it is a Steinway Boston.

and that they use out of date Kawai technology - and that the Kawai technology has improved with the most recent series. [though one poster disputes that there has been any improvement in technology generally in recent decades]. My dilemma remains:

Kawai quality has come on in leaps and they have made many improvements to actions, soundboards and scaling this may or may not be Steinway input but it has done them no harm having Steinway on board

I can have a BIG 7 foot piano with the power and sustained bass notes for 14K pounds, because it is second hand and ten years old and therefore bears these deficiencies. If I were to use the same money to buy a new Kawai it would be a much smaller model with less 'umph'.

Not really a smaller piano would not have that bass. At the end of the day if you like the Boston then go for it, you will get many years of enjoyment out of it - the point most are trying to make is that there are other makes out there for less money that are better in the new piano market Kawai being one.

Barrie,

[Gill the Piano]

In general (huge generalisation approaching) I feel people buy Bostons because they're Steinway Bostons, rather than because they're a good instrument. In other words, they're a cheap way of buying a label/status symbol, rather than a piano...sorry!