Hi All
I'm looking to buy myself a second hand grand and I would like some advice. I don't have a massive budget.
I've played quite a few pianos in my price range and I've narrowed it down to a choice between a Petrof and a Kawai. I play Yam C3's and 5's all the time at work and I find them over bright and a bit flat (bullet proof they are though)
Now I'm pretty confident in the Kawai lasting pretty well and I like the warmth you tend to get compared to the Yam's but the Petrofs I've played have been very impressive indeed.
I've read some of the threads on here that have been less than complimentary about the Petrof but my ears are telling me to buy one.
What I want to know is, will it fall apart and need tuning every 16 bars or are these instruments sorted now? Resale value is not a major concern and Petrof owners out there who have any comments please jump in.
I'd be looking at an instrument not more than 5 years old.
BTW I'm in the UK so I don't know if that makes a difference to what sort of Petrof we're talking about.
Thanks for your time
Bri
Petrof. Reliability?
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
It really depends on how well the Petrof was set up by the supplying dealer and how particular he was in selecting it in the first place. Same comments apply to Weinbach. Build quality was by no means flimsy, but random and variable.
Some people seem to like the 'European' tone, but personally I think it's not worth the hassle of some of the problems that are often encountered from new in pianos supplied 5-10 years ago:
Actions, even Renners, often need extra recentring work.
Casework can be ill-fitting, with rubbing of polyester on fall-edges and music desks etc.
Keys can often foul on the back edge of the keyslip.
Hammers can foul on frames and soundboard edges in the treble. (This is often not easily rectified without comprehensive hammer surgery or strike-line alteration. Expensive,)
I have no great experience on the latest models, which may well have been improved, but quite frankly I can't summon up the enthusiasm to find out. Mind you, I'd avoid all Kawais apart from the latest models as well. You need at least an RX1. An RX2 or 3 is even better.
Some people seem to like the 'European' tone, but personally I think it's not worth the hassle of some of the problems that are often encountered from new in pianos supplied 5-10 years ago:
Actions, even Renners, often need extra recentring work.
Casework can be ill-fitting, with rubbing of polyester on fall-edges and music desks etc.
Keys can often foul on the back edge of the keyslip.
Hammers can foul on frames and soundboard edges in the treble. (This is often not easily rectified without comprehensive hammer surgery or strike-line alteration. Expensive,)
I have no great experience on the latest models, which may well have been improved, but quite frankly I can't summon up the enthusiasm to find out. Mind you, I'd avoid all Kawais apart from the latest models as well. You need at least an RX1. An RX2 or 3 is even better.
That has really helped.....
Well!!!
Thanks Piano Guy, I'm going to take advantage of your expertise (and looking through this forum, you have quite alot). I think the petrof was an amazing instrument but it is a risk. As for the Kawai, I still like 'em but Openwood has got me thinking....
My last grand was a Bluthner (s/n 46630 i think) 1880's but fully restored and I still miss it terribly.
So I've completely changed my mind... Bluthner it is....
By the way I have to say that the newer Yam's I've played have been a lot warmer/smoother/deep as you point out Openwood. but I can't see myself with one (although it's probably good sense).
Now I'm going to start another thread about Bluthners and really get on everyones nerves.
I suspect Piano Guy will be able to tell me what to look out for in an older Bluthner.
I'm guessing here but a post 1925 non aliquot 6'+ grand is probably on the right tracks. I seem to remember the Bluthner patent action being undesirable (although I found mine perfet) and the aliquot being a bit of a waste of time.
Thanks again for your help and I feel alot happier now I've made my mind up to go back to a Bluthner.
Thanks Piano Guy, I'm going to take advantage of your expertise (and looking through this forum, you have quite alot). I think the petrof was an amazing instrument but it is a risk. As for the Kawai, I still like 'em but Openwood has got me thinking....
My last grand was a Bluthner (s/n 46630 i think) 1880's but fully restored and I still miss it terribly.
So I've completely changed my mind... Bluthner it is....
By the way I have to say that the newer Yam's I've played have been a lot warmer/smoother/deep as you point out Openwood. but I can't see myself with one (although it's probably good sense).
Now I'm going to start another thread about Bluthners and really get on everyones nerves.
I suspect Piano Guy will be able to tell me what to look out for in an older Bluthner.
I'm guessing here but a post 1925 non aliquot 6'+ grand is probably on the right tracks. I seem to remember the Bluthner patent action being undesirable (although I found mine perfet) and the aliquot being a bit of a waste of time.
Thanks again for your help and I feel alot happier now I've made my mind up to go back to a Bluthner.
Re: That has really helped.....
....Or just too much time on my hands...?Bri wrote:Well!!!
Thanks Piano Guy, I'm going to take advantage of your expertise (and looking through this forum, you have quite alot).
Post 1925 non Aliquot 6' + is certainly along the right lines!Bri wrote:So I've completely changed my mind... Bluthner it is....
I suspect Piano Guy will be able to tell me what to look out for in an older Bluthner.
I'm guessing here but a post 1925 non aliquot 6'+ grand is probably on the right tracks. I seem to remember the Bluthner patent action being undesirable (although I found mine perfet) and the aliquot being a bit of a waste of time.
I rather like the Patent Action, although it has a tendency to be noisier than a roller. It's vitally important that you find a restorer who's conversant with them. Not everybody is.
The money you'll need to spend on a properly restored older Blüthner will be more than you'd need for a used Petrof or Kawai.
Good luck!
Bri, I spent 3 years trying Bluthner vintage grands of the pre-1914 period and they are excellent instruments built to last. I too think highly of the patent system which is very fast and light but as PG says not many technicians are practised at regulating them. There are a lot of vintage Bluthners for sale at the moment (see this for the model numbers/descriptions: http://www.courtneypianos.co.uk/bluthner.html) so be careful
I didn't in fact buy a Bluthner because I found a Bechstein model C which had been completely rebuilt and was a revelation.....I had previously always been disappointed by restored Bechsteins. This source has some other rebuilt vintage grands which are excellent and at an unrepeatable price. If you're interested email me sir_prize_45@hotmail.com
I didn't in fact buy a Bluthner because I found a Bechstein model C which had been completely rebuilt and was a revelation.....I had previously always been disappointed by restored Bechsteins. This source has some other rebuilt vintage grands which are excellent and at an unrepeatable price. If you're interested email me sir_prize_45@hotmail.com
money money money........
It does seem that I need to spend a bit more cash than I originally intended....
I think it's time to skim some off the mortgage....
I was in the Bluthner showroom recently in London and played as many as I could and I know I need one. I'm going to just type away until I convince myself, don't mind me.
Thanks for all your input, I realize that I'm going to be quite happy with a Patent action again as my tuner looked after my last one very well. So that opens up a lot of instruments to me I think.
I should be shopping by July so I'll keep you posted as I do like to read the follow up on this forum myself.
PianoGuy, be honest are you just one guy or is there a team of crack piano techs sharing one avatar? Will we ever know? Too much time or an altruistic streak your input is always appreciated.
Thanks all
Bri
I think it's time to skim some off the mortgage....
I was in the Bluthner showroom recently in London and played as many as I could and I know I need one. I'm going to just type away until I convince myself, don't mind me.
Thanks for all your input, I realize that I'm going to be quite happy with a Patent action again as my tuner looked after my last one very well. So that opens up a lot of instruments to me I think.
I should be shopping by July so I'll keep you posted as I do like to read the follow up on this forum myself.
PianoGuy, be honest are you just one guy or is there a team of crack piano techs sharing one avatar? Will we ever know? Too much time or an altruistic streak your input is always appreciated.
Thanks all
Bri
-
Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: 30 May 2003, 20:42
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The main down site on the patent action are the check wires they are too thin on some actions this causes the checking to go out after sustained heavy playing – the action then feels uneven. That is one of the main reasons a lot of pianists who have played one don’t like them as the action feels uneven. .They do need a lot of TLC from a Tech who understands them; but if done correct, they can out perform a roller action
The noisy action if often caused by an enlarged balance holes I have seen many restored Bluthner that the holes have been left and not resized or done to my preferred way of inserting a new hardwood insert.
IF you buy one to have restored by Bluthners for the full Monty you are looking at 13.5K they will fit in a new roller action if you ask they use a Schwander action but they tend to push you to restoring the old action theses days
have you seen
http://www.uk-piano.org/used-pianos-for ... php?id=245
may be worth looking at
Barrie,
The noisy action if often caused by an enlarged balance holes I have seen many restored Bluthner that the holes have been left and not resized or done to my preferred way of inserting a new hardwood insert.
IF you buy one to have restored by Bluthners for the full Monty you are looking at 13.5K they will fit in a new roller action if you ask they use a Schwander action but they tend to push you to restoring the old action theses days
have you seen
http://www.uk-piano.org/used-pianos-for ... php?id=245
may be worth looking at
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
I hate Petrofs so much that I felt moved to post this twice:
Had the misfortune to have to work on a 2001 model Petrof grand this week. Absolute heap of junk fitted with a badly set-up Renner action (This was badged "Petrof-Renner" so maybe Renner were trying to distance themselves from it!) the usual badly-fitting casework and indifferent finish. It was owned by a professional musician, God help me.
It was fitted with a slow-close fall, the mechanism of which there was no attempt to hide, and a plastic closing unit and its associated Philips screws grinned at me from the bass end of the fall. Shoddy. Ugly too, with no attempt to style the casework at all.
The hammers (some Czech Specials, no doubt) were just slightly too narrow for the string spacing, and occasionally I had to use the una-corda pedal simply to get the third string to sound in spite of the hammer spacing being as correct as the poor factory Czech-Tech could have adjusted them. The outer string marks were just on the edges of the hammer felt and this resulted in a piano which was as much of a pain to tune as I can ever recall.
Sadly, the owner had spent every last penny (over 9K) on it, buying it brand new in 2002 (judging by the state of the house, the priority should have been 1k on air freshener, 2k on paint and carpet and 7k on a nice second-hand Yamaha C-something, but no, that "European Sound" (and a sharp salesman, no doubt) persuaded her to part company with all that cash for a pile of dung. Actually, that's not far off onomatopoeia for the noise the bottom half dozen bass strings made.
There. Just in case someone is considering one, there's two chances they might be saved from a life of disappointment and unfulfilled pleasure.
Had the misfortune to have to work on a 2001 model Petrof grand this week. Absolute heap of junk fitted with a badly set-up Renner action (This was badged "Petrof-Renner" so maybe Renner were trying to distance themselves from it!) the usual badly-fitting casework and indifferent finish. It was owned by a professional musician, God help me.
It was fitted with a slow-close fall, the mechanism of which there was no attempt to hide, and a plastic closing unit and its associated Philips screws grinned at me from the bass end of the fall. Shoddy. Ugly too, with no attempt to style the casework at all.
The hammers (some Czech Specials, no doubt) were just slightly too narrow for the string spacing, and occasionally I had to use the una-corda pedal simply to get the third string to sound in spite of the hammer spacing being as correct as the poor factory Czech-Tech could have adjusted them. The outer string marks were just on the edges of the hammer felt and this resulted in a piano which was as much of a pain to tune as I can ever recall.
Sadly, the owner had spent every last penny (over 9K) on it, buying it brand new in 2002 (judging by the state of the house, the priority should have been 1k on air freshener, 2k on paint and carpet and 7k on a nice second-hand Yamaha C-something, but no, that "European Sound" (and a sharp salesman, no doubt) persuaded her to part company with all that cash for a pile of dung. Actually, that's not far off onomatopoeia for the noise the bottom half dozen bass strings made.
There. Just in case someone is considering one, there's two chances they might be saved from a life of disappointment and unfulfilled pleasure.
Re: That has really helped.....
What do you count as new Yamahas? Last few years or last few months? Not sure whether i have noticed this change and wonder if it's because I don't notice things (!) or whether the ones I've played have not been new enough....Bri wrote: By the way I have to say that the newer Yam's I've played have been a lot warmer/smoother/deep as you point out Openwood. but I can't see myself with one (although it's probably good sense).