Upright rebuild or partial job?

[jackg]

My 1924 Grotrian Streinweg was going out of tune within a week of it being tuned last wek so I thought the maybe the tuning pins are loose.
When I bought it, it was out of tune to the extent that it was unplayable. I had it tuned first last November, and again before Easter. So it will probably take a few tunings to get itself used to being in tune.

Another tuner came to give his opinion yesterday and he was very helpful. The tuning pins are fine he says, the holes are slightly enlarged in the bass section on the face of the wrest plank probably due to expansion and contraction from central heating but otherwise as very good, nicely at an angle as well.

But the hammers are worn, a lot are flat where they hit the strings. Someone had a go at filing the string imprints off the ends of them. He explained to reface hammers you have to remove felt all the way round not just at the point of contact.

So is replacing the hammers or an action rebuild the only thing that need doing or would it be beneficial to replace the strings at the same time?

My usual tuner reckons that newer strings are not as good as the original ones.
The tuner from yesterday reckoned that that may have been so 30-40 years ago but not now.
But another shop said they lose their temper over time.
So which is best?
Is rebuilding the action a bit like rebuilding the engine on a car and replacing the strings like replacing the gearbox. So it's not a sensible option to just rebuild the action without replacing the strings?

The chances are that any work would include retensioning the sound board as well. If it needed it? I put a piece of string over the longest part of the back of the soundboard and in the middle the string was proud of the soundboard by about 1/4", which I assume is the crown, or its obverse.

[Barrie Heaton]

My 1924 Grotrian Streinweg was going out of tune within a week of it being tuned last wek so I thought the maybe the tuning pins are loose.
When I bought it, it was out of tune to the extent that it was unplayable. I had it tuned first last November, and again before Easter. So it will probably take a few tunings to get itself used to being in tune.

It can take few tuning to settle a pianos down

But the hammers are worn, a lot are flat where they hit the strings. Someone had a go at filing the string imprints off the ends of them. He explained to reface hammers you have to remove felt all the way round not just at the point of contact.

So is replacing the hammers or an action rebuild the only thing that need doing or would it be beneficial to replace the strings at the same time?

You need new hammers and quite a lot of action work
If you can afford it and the piano is worth it then yes new strings and pins would be good

My usual tuner reckons that newer strings are not as good as the original ones.
The tuner from yesterday reckoned that that may have been so 30-40 years ago but not now.
But another shop said they lose their temper over time.
So which is best?

The bass strings get full of dirt and the windings get loos making a the string dull. Steel strings suffer form metal fatigue, pitting and stretching at the termination points – Sorry but your old tuner is taking rubbish.

Is rebuilding the action a bit like rebuilding the engine on a car and replacing the strings like replacing the gearbox. So it's not a sensible option to just rebuild the action without replacing the strings?

Yes but sometimes you don’t need to change the strings if you are happy with the tone of the string then why change However, it is better do the lot in one go finances can be a restriction so the restring can be done later


Barrie,

[Gill the Piano]

I'd agree with Barrie, and in fact that's what I'm going to do with my Bluthner upright; have the action done first and then the strings if you aren't happy with the sound after you have new hammer heads. Good solution if you aren't made of money! (I'm only a pore ole tuner... )

[PianoGuy]

My usual tuner reckons that newer strings are not as good as the original ones.
The tuner from yesterday reckoned that that may have been so 30-40 years ago but not now.
But another shop said they lose their temper over time.
So which is best?

Exactly. Strings lose their temper over time and become work hardened so they won't hold pitch so well and eventually break. If your piano is at A440 and is still on its original set of strings with no odd ones anywhere, you're possibly ok with them for a while (see final comment) .

As for new strings being poorer than 1924 ones, I'd agree with your second tuner's thoughts. Modern strings are superb, and every bit as good as your originals. Make sure the bass strings are made by a top string-maker, and not done on the cheap though. Half a century ago, British music wire was utter crap, and had a dull grey appearance from new. Manufacturers such as the apalling Brunton's with their universally derided "Tartan Label Rust-Resist" offered a cheap material for dodgy restorers, but thankfully most of it has gone from the shelves now!

Is rebuilding the action a bit like rebuilding the engine on a car and replacing the strings like replacing the gearbox. So it's not a sensible option to just rebuild the action without replacing the strings?

Not really.

I'd agree with Gill about the 'two stages' thing if funds are tight. You could always have the action work done and hammerheads replaced and then see what it sounds like before spending the extra on a restring.

If you can afford to have it completely restored in one hit, you'll save on the cost of transport (having to move it only once) and the cost of inflation on repairers' work. Piano restoration prices are not coming down unless you want to send it to Poland for a cheap tosh-over.

[jackg]

Thanks for your typically incisive comments. I'll get some prices then decide what I am going to do.

[PianoGuy]

Thanks for your typically incisive comments.

Do they have summatt to do with teeth?

[jackg]

I had a look on the Abel web site and according to their info the hammers on a Grotrian upright are 65/75 bass/treble. I measured mine and they are 62.3/70.3 or thereabouts allowing for string imprints. So is that wear excessive, 5mm would seem a lot in the treble but how about the bass of say 2.5-3mm?

I read a comment about a new type of natural hammer by Abel which was positive. Anyone got any info or even used them?
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultim ... /2716.html

[PianoGuy]

Nope.

An old Grotrian will likely have pared felts in the bass, so I'd probably suggest recovering rather than replacement. Abel themselves offer a recovering service which is is very good and is available in different 'grades' so maybe they'll offer this type of felt as an option.

[Gill the Piano]

Any idea what the top 'grade' costs? Only the best for my old Bluthner! Unless I can't afford it, of course...

[Openwood]

I was thinking of getting new bass strings for the 1924 Gors & Kallman baby grand I've just acquired. How much would a good set of new bass strings cost?

[jackg]

The room it is in varies in temp between 15-25'C and humidity varies between 45-60%.

Whilst trying to establish why it drifts out of tune three suggestions have been made by techs, given that the tuning pins are ok.
1. The hammers are worn so you have multiple points of contact between the strings and the hammer. The hammers have lines cut into them by the hammers.
2. another techs opinion unseen is that if the tuning pins are ok then the downbearing is insufficient to prevent the strings moving on the bridge pins.
3. The strings are worn and move.

I am not convinced that the worn hammers are the sole reason if it can be tuned reasonably well.

It is drifting out of tune faster after the second tune as it was following the first. Maybe I am more aware, but I am not playing it as much.

I have read that you can get downbearing gauges.
From Reblitz he suggests taking a piece of cotton thread from the hitch pin over the bridge and to the tuning pin and then slowly lifting it at the tuning pin end and checking how far you lift the thread at the tuning pin end before the thread lifts clear of the bridge. It is not the easiest thing to check.
There does appear to be a small amount of downbearing measured in this way but I am not sure how much.
I measured the crown at about 1/8" on the longest section between the ribs.

I want to establish where the fault lies, so if I get the action only rebuilt will it hold tune?

[PianoGuy]

The room it is in varies in temp between 15-25'C and humidity varies between 45-60%.

That's quite a variation if it's over a short timescale.

Whilst trying to establish why it drifts out of tune three suggestions have been made by techs, given that the tuning pins are ok.
1. The hammers are worn so you have multiple points of contact between the strings and the hammer.

Eh?? That would be some weird kind of wear. The hammers must look like vampire fangs

I think you mean that the hammers are so string-grooved that the area of contact of the hammer on the string is longer than it should be. If the hammers are really bad, this will mean that the upper harmonics with which we tuners use to determine unisons may be smothered at birth, which can make it a difficult piano to tune in the first place.

Since an increased surface area of hammer hitting the string also results in a less energetic strike since the impact is spread over an area, the process of 'setting' the pin to achieve stability can be made impossible.

I want to establish where the fault lies, so if I get the action only rebuilt will it hold tune?

It might!

Depends if it's the environment or the lack of proper pin setting that's the problem.

The phrase is 'suck it and see' I think!

[Barrie Heaton]

I was thinking of getting new bass strings for the 1924 Gors & Kallman baby grand I've just acquired. How much would a good set of new bass strings cost?

Well it depends were you go and if you can get them at trade
to you about £200.00 +

Barrie

[Barrie Heaton]

The room it is in varies in temp between 15-25'C and humidity varies between 45-60%.

I would say that is your main problem

Are the notes that go out of tune single note (just the unison ) or is it octaves middell C down

It could be a badly fitting plank so it rocks when the tuner tunes it


Barrie,

[jackg]

The temperature variations are the maximum. Typically between 17-18 to 23 on a daily basis. It is a well insulated cocoon of a house.

The notes going out of tune are really all over the keyboard, there is no one area worse than others.

The 2nd tuner asked before he came if alternate notes were out of tune (on a chromatic scale) which would indicate that plank had gone, they weren't.

When it was first tuned the tuner did curse whilst tuning to say the sound board had moved during tuning. It was unplayable when I got it.

[David B]

When it was first tuned the tuner did curse whilst tuning to say the sound board had moved during tuning.

Eh? Moved to where, the South of France?

I'm not a tuner, a mere mortal, but that seems a little improbable to me. Though I guess if the soundboard had moved, then so would the bridge, and thus the alignment of the strings....perhaps if it sneakily moved back after the tuner left, this would account for it being out of tune?

Have you seen his qualifications, this tuner?

[jackg]

A tech refurbished the action.
He took the action away with him to do, so no transportation of the piano.
The work he did included;
Recentred the hammers.
Reshaped the hammers.
New backtouch cloth and the levelling and buffing of the keys.
New tapes, hammer repetition springs, check leathers.
He replaced the parts that needed replacing and left others if they were ok, ie judicious.
He spent two hours adjusting the action when installed on the piano.
And change out of £500

A nice even touch which takes less effort to play than before.
He said the bass strings are a bit tubby but are ok for the while.

[PianoGuy]

Either he's got no overheads, doesn't make a profit, or you're getting less work than you think.

I'm always wary of the "Where necessary" clause. Every felt, leather and pin in your piano is the same age, so I reckon they'll all need replacing if a quantity are worn out.

I think you'll find that you'll be paying for some of that work to be done again. If the hammers are as flat as you say, and someone's previously 'had a go' at 'filing the ends' off them, then I'll bet you that 500 nicker that a refacing job whoever has done it won't last long. You'll be down to soft felt on the hammers by now, which isn't the same level of tension than the original outer layer.

As always in this world, you pays your money and takes your choice. In some cases you pay again.

Good luck!