Marshall and Wendell player piano, hoping for normal action

[indigitydogdignation]

Greetings,

I just bought a turn of the century Marshall and Wendell upright player piano which needs restoration.(Ser# 64510) I'm accustomed to tinkering and probably won't find this too intimidating, and I'll be moving it to my house two days from now, when the weather improves.

The piano seemed to be in fairly good condition, (though someone painted it FIRE-ENGINE RED at some point - probably back in the 30's when bare wood was considered low-class.(?)) Unfortunately the action was almost completely frozen, OR, could this have been some mechanical interferance from the player mechanism? Most of the keys wouldn't budge, those that did didn't travel very far, even when played over and over to loosen them up. Was I working against some mechanical feature of the player that I should have disengaged? If so, is it harmful to the instrument to manually play it when the player is engaged?

Another thing I noticed; When I held chords in the base against notes I was playing several octaves higher, I could feel the upper notes tripping some mechanism in such a way that it registered through the keys under my left hand.

Could it be that it just needs lots of lubrication?

I might be getting ahead of myself at this point since I haven't worked my way into the guts of it. Ultimately I'm more interested in having a playing piano than a player piano, and if it comes to that I'll remove what I have to make things right. Will I be able to adjust the action for greater depth? Would there be any point in doing this? What are my options?

I know nothing about player pianos and would appreciate a few good links if anyone has any. Most every search I've done brings me to someone's sales department.

Thanks

[Barrie Heaton]

Could it be that it just needs lots of lubrication?

That is a big NO No We traditionally don’t use lubricants on pianos it may be the player mechanism has jammed or not seated on the piano action correct

for info on players click on the Piano Resources link to the left in Quick Links

Barrie,

[indigitydogdignation]

Barrie H: That is a big NO No We traditionally don’t use lubricants on pianos it may be the player mechanism has jammed or not seated on the piano action correct

I might have been tempted to start spraying here and there, so I'm glad I checked in. Thanks for the heads up. I'll wait until I've actually got the thing in my hands before I ask any more questions.

[indigitydogdignation]

I removed most the player parts and the action seems fine, (a lever was stuck.) I made a few small fixes here and there and tuned it as best I could with improvized tools. (I've ordered a tuning hammer.) It was tuned a whole step low when I bought it, so I brought it up to A410 - quite a leap - the higher strings didn't hold all that well, but I didn't try tapping to firm them -not yet. Some of the notes double strike but's that's not intolerable at this point. I read in a different forum that this could be remedied by thickening the balance-rail punching about the thickness of a credit card. I experimented with this and it helped, but it also lifted the key. What are the other factors that can contribute to double strike?

Poor dampering has kept me from playing this piano and I'm wondering if there might be a way to broaden the range of the damper motion. Some keys are muffled with little or no noticable damper movement, while others zing because the dampers won't contact well enough. I removed a leather cap from the top of the sustain pedal post, (where it meets the lever that comes out from the action.) That helped a little. The dampers look deeply grooved, but maybe not excessively. Would it make sense to take a very small needle and loosen up some of the damper felts for better contact? I've heard of this being done with special tools on the hammer felts, to soften harsh tones. Is it ok to carefully needle the felts where they make contact with the strings, or would that likely destroy them?

I removed the action and realized rather quickly that I couldn't set it down anywhere! Do most technicians place the actions on frames, or would they usually just tilt it back on the round pivot pegs that it sits on?

Most notes have lost their their "double-action" feel, which seems to correlate with wear at the juncture between the jack and the hammer butt, due to loss of felt (?) on the hammer butt? Does that sound right? I'm using this diagram for a reference - http://www.concertpitchpiano.com/Uprigh ... Model.html

Some keys that seem otherwise fine have a sluggish return. Would a good cleaning likely help this problem? Does the hammer return by gravity alone or do springs in other areas of the system affect it's return?

Cleaning might be a good place for me to start, if anyone has any tips.
Thanks in advance.

[Tom Tuner]

Nearly all upright players up to 1930 have a key lock to keep the keys from moving when a roll is playing. When set it also prevents the keys from being played. There will be a small lever, usually under the key bed, but sometimes on the key slip, that will release this. On a vety few it might be linked to the lever that opens the panel covering the treadles.

Double-striking ("blubbering") hammers which fail to check can be due to wear in felt or buckskin, or gross misregulation (or interference from the stop rail which prevents the player action from mashing the hammers into the strings).

Most upright actions have a pair of feet on the outer action brackets which will precariously allow the action to stand on a level service. These are not much use for doing actual work on the action. You can buy or make an action cradle, or improvise some support. The action can be placed front side or back side down on a workbench.

Tom Tuner

[indigitydogdignation]

Tom, thanks for the help. The tuning settled in better than I expected after some bad slippage in the first few hours. The higher notes have flattened considerably, since it probably wasn't tuned in a dog's age, at least, before I brought it up about a half step from a whole tone flat. (Is a half-step too much for one tuning?) The middle range and lower notes slipped down a little, but in a surprisingly uniform way. I've been playing this piano quite a bit lately. About the only things that sound really bad on it are scales and excercises, since they can't be colored to hide imperfections in the action and abrasive attack sounds.

Double-striking is still a problem and I'm not sure if I'm ready to start digging around in the inner workings of the action. When I had the action out that one time, I set it on the piano bench with the damper side facing down, and the top of one of the jacks (they're pretty short on this piano,) ended up underneath the hammer butt, instead of in that little nook it moves in, where the buckskin is. I got it back into place with a little tinkering, holding parts of the key action apart, etc.

The buckskins on my piano are red, (if I'm looking in the right area,) so is the term "buckskin" just another name for a felt, or are they actually leather?
Is there a common household substitute, or would it be best to order some?
Is there a way to remedy worn buckskins or replace them without acutally taking parts off the action?

[Tom Tuner]

Buckskin is usually exactly that colour, buckskin or buff. In recent years much of it has been a dark brick-red. The red material you are looking at is likely to be felt. To answer your last question: no. On the other hand, removing butts to renew the buckskin on the backcatches or the notches is not very difficult. If a jack got stuck under the notch it is likely that the tape-checks are gone. Don't try to reinstall the action with it in this condition or you may damage it. Of course if you have identified the key-lock, and it is working, you can use it to reinstall the action without any tapes at all providing you are very careful.

Tom

[Openwood]

Indigitydogdignation, I don't mean this to sound critical at all, but each time I read this thread I get more curious to know why you're taking so much trouble over an ex-player piano painted fire engine red!

Clearly it's absolutely none of my business, it's just that all the former player pianos I've ever played have sounded pretty mundane and I wondered what it was about this one that made you take the plunge? You must have so much patience - I'd have given up long ago and bought one that worked!

Here is a pre-fabricated reply which you are most welcome to cut and paste back to me:

"Bugger off, Openwood - I'll do what I like. Mind your own business."

[indigitydogdignation]

Openwood:....each time I read this thread I get more curious to know why you're taking so much trouble over an ex-player piano painted fire engine red!

I live in an area that isn't too well populated. The other choice was a Stoltz upright in very similar condition. I was about to buy a Roland fp7 for around $1,500 but decided to take the low road and get a real piano, for much MUCH less. ($300 +$150 to have it moved.) I got tired of watching other people playing piano on Utube, broke down and bought a used, cheap, hardly-fit-for-a-saloon type instrument - but it was good in it's day, still good in some ways.
The action is worn down and sounds very abrasive, but you can still work your music into it. The shrillness can be used to good effect with a softer touch. Most Bach peices sound terrible on it and most Mozart wouldn't work too well either. It's a heavy-souding Beethoven type piano that needs sustain pedaling to hide the lumps and bumps. It has a deep, rich sound overall and carries a peircing melody line. (Things could be worse.)

Tom Tuner: If a jack got stuck under the notch it is likely that the tape-checks are gone. Don't try to reinstall the action with it in this condition or you may damage it. Of course if you have identified the key-lock, and it is working, you can use it to reinstall the action without any tapes at all providing you are very careful.

I retreived the jack from under the hammer butt after I set the action back in. That was over a week ago and the piano has played ok since then. As far as I can tell, the key locking lever doesn't affect anything when it's set to allow free motion. Apart from the pedals, the only interaction I see with the rest of the piano are the screws at the end of the keys, and making sure they're sitting squarely under the sticker cloths when the action sets on them. The action is held in with four hand nuts which can be easily removed, and then it tilts back on two large steel pins with rounded tops.

I looked on the diagram (http://www.concertpitchpiano.com/Uprigh ... Model.html) and couldn't find a reference to "tape checks" or even "tape." A google search with - "tape checks" piano - shows one reference, in this forum actually but without much context.
What exactly are tape checks?

I tried blowing air into the action with a Kirby vacuum, hoping to clean it for a quicker return on some of the keys but it had no effect - no harm done. When I first worked on the piano, I noticed quite a few straight-wire springs pointing this way and that, probably damper springs. Setting those back into their groves helped remedy some of the problems, but the slow-return still persists on many keys and keeps me from playing softly when I'm playing certain notes repeatedly.
Does this sound like a problem that can be remedied with a proper cleaning, or are there likely some worn springs/parts?

[Openwood]

I admire your determination! Best of luck with the project

[Tom Tuner]

Tape-checks are known as 'bridle tapes' in some quarters, and run from the back catch or butt to a wire sticking up out of the wippen. Your Kirby will not generate enough of a breeze to dislodge much dirt. Use an air compressor with a blow gun attachment. And do this out-of-doors!
Get a copy of Kennedy's Piano Action Maintainence and Repair. to find out the basics. This book is inexpensive and easy to follow.

Tom Tuner