There's this 1985 Steinway Model B

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 28 Mar 2007, 15:54

What do we think? I'll really struggle to raise the cash but with a loan it might just be possible for a 'once in a lifetime' piano. I'm trying to find out which side of the pond it was made on as I would much prefer a Hamburger over a Big Apple.

I've heard dodgy things about S&S production in the mid-80s and for that kind of money I don't want to be left with a turkey.

Time for a sandwich....

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 28 Mar 2007, 19:51

If it's a Hamburg one it could be great.

Get it checked by someone who knows 'em though.

PM me if you want.

PG

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Mar 2007, 20:17

There are many who believe strongly that the Apple is a far better than the Hamburger

You may not believe this, but there are quite a few in them there hills over there that have not tried a Hamburger, but they just know an Apple is a far better. The interesting fact is that quite a lot of the Apple is not home grown it’s made in Germany

The 70’s was not good – plastic flange bushings

The other bits of trivia

The upright actions were made in the UK at one point possibly 80s Dave Martin did tell me but I can’t remember

The Apple has gone back to Bacon felt the stuff they use to use in the 1920 at the same time key staff from the old Whiteheads (Royal George Felt) were they use to get their felt form moved to Bacon felt

Barrie,

WinstonChurchill · Post by **WinstonChurchill** » 28 Mar 2007, 20:57

Is 85 not the tail end of the CBS years? Thought I heard that those were years best avoided...?

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 28 Mar 2007, 22:32

Many thanks for your prompt replies and advice - long live the UK Piano Forum! An S&S Model B is my ultimate piano dream and I've been going through AGONIES over this one all day! It's in an auction in London - viewing is tomorrow and I just can't get there in time. When I look at this with my head instead of my heart it's obvious that I should spend some time playing it to feel really confident about commiting that amount of money.

Being sensible is so DULL

I've asked Jeffery Shackell to bear me in mind if a Model B comes up and if you guys could do same I'd be really grateful. The 20-25k bracket is going to be my absolute maximum for a while and that is pushing me to the limit. Perhaps I'd be better off getting a new Yamaha C6 and using it to upgrade to a Model B in 5 or so years when the piggy bank is a bit heavier.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Mar 2007, 08:00

Openwood wrote: An S&S Model B is my ultimate piano dream and I've been going through AGONIES over this one all day! It's in an auction in London - viewing is tomorrow and I just can't get there in time.

You won't miss much.

Piano auctions are for selling, not buying.

This one's so heavily publicised and attended that nobody will win a bargain except for the auctioneers who end up with cash from the seller *and* the buyer. Money for old rope. SEVENTEEN AND A HALF PERCENT of hammer price PLUS VAT is added to the final cost to bidder and then he has to get it home. Factor in that there's no warranty and there's only a limited time to view and it's a recipe for disaster. You need to take a damned good technician with you which won't come cheap, and be prepared to stop bidding when the temperature gets too hot. There are also many technicians, some good and some frankly appalling, schmoozing at these sales. Some are offering unbiased advice out of generosity and interest (few are bidding!) some are there for the genuine entertainment of seeing fools part with money; some are idly viewing the stock after having given advice to a paying client; others are subtly touting for the restoration job from unsuspecting punters.

Auctions now have another problem and it's you, the public. Once the preserve of those 'in the know' in the piano trade, it was possible for a dealer to net a deal at one, but now their reputation has spread, the places are full of uninformed housewives who bid the lots up astronomically to well above trade and think they're getting a bargain. Bear in mind that dealers still frequent these auctions too, so any bid on anything desirable will by definition be above trade value.

The only saving grace about the 29th is that much of the trade will be at Frankfurt, so it will be a depleted audience bidding.

Steinways have such a reputation as 'investments' now, and a B is desirable property, so the one you're looking at will be keenly eyed by many. Let's say your B is bid up to 20k. The cost to you will be:

20,000
+ buyers premium of 3,500
+VAT 612.50
+ Carriage to (where is it? IOW?) say 400-ish

Your piano will cost you 24 and a half K before you've even had it tuned.

Sum-up? Sell at auction. Don't buy at one.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 29 Mar 2007, 08:15

Thanks, PG!

It's tremendously helpful to have this sort of advice from people in the business. I think I'll get a new Yamaha C6 later this year (moving house) and use it as a trade-in instrument in a few years when I've saved up some more.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Mar 2007, 08:38

C6 is good.

Try Mr.Shackell for that too. I think he deals in Yamaha, and prepares them properly, as if it were a Steinway!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 29 Mar 2007, 13:31

Yes, heard very good things about JS.

I just Re-read Barrie's earlier post; I hope you all appreciate how blessed you are to work in a profession where the phrase 'plastic flange bushings' can be used with a straight face. I love that - in fact I think I may be about to change my online profile.....

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 29 Mar 2007, 18:48

Openwood wrote:Yes, heard very good things about JS.

I just Re-read Barrie's earlier post; I hope you all appreciate how blessed you are to work in a profession where the phrase 'plastic flange bushings' can be used with a straight face. I love that - in fact I think I may be about to change my online profile.....

You need to read some the American post on pianos they write about "Bonking Pianos!" my eyes were stemming. Then a young man said he had invented a tool to make Bonking less painful. Now that got me worried, as we were about to visit the US - terminology can lead you to some strange places in the mind.

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Mar 2007, 19:22

In fact it went for 30K

That means the proud new owner paid a staggering 36,168 quid in total, plus delivery and whatever tuning and reg work it needs.

No warranty.

Hardly a bargain.

The previous owner received a healthy 25,593.75.

The canny auctioneers received 8.5K!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:30

Holy Moly!!!!

Did it go to someone in the business or to a filthy rich punter?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:49

Dunno.

My guess it was a punter. Too much money for trade.

That kind of cash can net you a good one of similar age from a good dealer. With a warranty.

PS: The entire list of stupid prices is posted on the webby from tomorrow. Have a laugh, or weep if you bought.

David B · Post by **David B** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:14

On the other hand, the Grotien Steinweg concert grand, 1990, went for £12,000, the 1974 Steinway D got £18,000, and the 1997 Bosendorfer went for £22,000

Or, you could have got a Challen 4'6" for £150

jackg · Post by **jackg** » 30 Mar 2007, 16:15

Condition is everything though.

The total value of the items sold was £345k
Averaging 15% commission from sellers and 15% from the buyers the auctioneers earned £120k.
Nice work.

WinstonChurchill · Post by **WinstonChurchill** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:37

....less all of their overheads, of course.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 30 Mar 2007, 18:58

Yes, less their overheads.

Even so, it's not a bad little earner, and a superb way to offload a joanna if it has S&S written on it. The tired Steinways were all bought by the trade I think, and for brave money considering they all needed work.

Grotrians, Bosies et al don't command the money anywhere unless there's a showroom and sales facilities, so auction's a good a place as any if you need to sell quickly.

andyaeola · Post by **andyaeola** » 31 Mar 2007, 12:27

It was the Grotrain that caught my eye too. Was it the bargain of the year, anyone see it? What were Grotrians like 17 years ago?

Regards

Andy

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 31 Mar 2007, 20:15

18,000 doesn't sound much for a 1974 Steinway D. How much can go wrong in 30-odd years for it to depreciate by so much? Or does 1974 fall within the 'plastic flange bushings years'?

Incidentally what on earth moved manufacturers in the 70s to stick their brand names on the sides of concert grands in giant letters? Even as a child I remember thinking it looked tacky, and given what passed for good taste during the 70s, that's really saying something.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » 02 Apr 2007, 14:14

I couldn't agree more about the tacky lettering.

My 1985 'D' in matt got sent to be properly finished in polyester, and I had them take out the lettering - it's much, much better. Apparently I have ruined my piano for all time as a consequence....

I don't care because it's going to be sold by my grandchildren long after I've been pushing up daisies!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 02 Apr 2007, 16:53

Openwood wrote:
Incidentally what on earth moved manufacturers in the 70s to stick their brand names on the sides of concert grands in giant letters? Even as a child I remember thinking it looked tacky, and given what passed for good taste during the 70s, that's really saying something.

TV free ads

Barrie

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 03 Apr 2007, 07:08

Openwood wrote:18,000 doesn't sound much for a 1974 Steinway D. How much can go wrong in 30-odd years for it to depreciate by so much?

It was 21,253 then with bp+VAT.

I doubt that it has depreciated at all. I can't quote Steinway price lists, but in 1974, a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow cost 14k, a Mini was about 600 quid and your average house in the UK was 10.5k.

So that's enough to pay for a tired D.

D popularity is far less than B, since fewer people can fit them into their homes, and (unless they're totally spotless) they're rather uglier which reduces appeal for those that can. This rules out many of the private punters. Also bear in mind that most are ex-hire or concert pianos and 30-odd years of mixed maintenance (or lack of consistent maintenance) can take their toll.

What a sale result in general those auctioneers had. I've just been perusing the figures. Yamahas fetching near-retail; cheap Far-Eastern uprights selling for more than trade; silly Steinway prices; more than new price for a crappy old concert stool; Bozo upright fetching a grand or so less than the last few I've seen go for at dealers'..... All with no warranty, no delivery and no initial set-up tuning. Nothing.

And no doubt the twits who've bought the above think they have bargains. It's like the property market. The world's gone mad.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » 05 Apr 2007, 12:25

I spent 3 years looking for my ideal 'B', and failed to find it. I tried just about everything I could lay my hands on, and in the end found this 'D' which was streets and streets ahead of any other I had tried. Like every other pianist, it was that bass that sold the 'D' to me.

When I dug a bit, I found the fingers of Jeffrey Shackell all over it (well not his real fingers, of course) and it's very much the better because of it. In its 22 years it's on its second full stringing and third set of hammers, and the dampers are going to need some attention soon.

So, my experience certainly backs up PG, most of the 'D's for sale are indeed 'tired' and in need of some TLC.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 05 Apr 2007, 12:44

Yup, the bass is the thing!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 05 Apr 2007, 21:45

Ds and Bs....

I love 'em!

PG