Whitelocks Ideal piano - Berlin

[matt902001]

Piano which my mother inherited years ago, I believe it too be over 100 years old as it was used as part of the silent movie era.

Any idea what sort of age this may be??

[Bill Kibby]

The Leeds firm of Whitelock claimed to have been established around 1800, but our first record of the name is in Northampton, 1886, and the later Leeds firm seemed to end around the time of the 1939 war. The English name "Ideal" has been used by a number of different firms, and the reference to Berlin suggests that this was a German-made piano sold by Whitelock under the name "Ideal". See the Piano Names link at pianogen.org as well as various general subject items there which may help.

[matt902001]

Thanks for that, I am actually from Leeds, and so was my mother so that information is very useful, and quite interesting.
Could you give a more definate age for the piano or not.

Thanks again.

[Bill Kibby]

I've got a guitar, how old is it? How would I do that? The firm went on a long time, and you haven't given me any clue about what the piano is like. Email some photos to me if you can, and have a look at the Datemarks link at pianogen.org

[matt902001]

I have searched your site, and also my piano and found the name "R.Gors & Kallmann" written on the underside of the piano.

I have found some numbers written on the left hand side of the piano "12878 606" and another number inside the piano "29469".

This may help you.


I can take some more pictures if this would help you, just let me know.

Thanks again

[Bill Kibby]

Their first published date of a number is 40,000 in 1908, and I can only guess that this one is about ten years earlier. If you know how to remove the action safely (the working parts of the notes) the action maker's name and number may be marked somewhere, and we may be abl;e to date this. I am surprised to think that G&K would have made pianos anonymously, and it may be that Whitelocks put a fictitious name on it when it was repolished.

[PianoGuy]

I am surprised to think that G&K would have made pianos anonymously, and it may be that Whitelocks put a fictitious name on it when it was repolished.

No they didn't!

"Whitelock's Ideal Piano, Berlin" was applied with a brass inlay on the fall where you'd expect the maker's name. "R.Görs & Kallmann" was written in brass inlay on the underside of the half-top, so it's highly likely that Whitelock's had some influence at G&K, and imported this one particular model for sale in their shop(s). I suppose it is feasible that they had the falls re-veneered, their own label inlaid, and a replacement "R.G&K" label inlaid into the half-top, but I would doubt they'd have bothered going to that kind of trouble.

I have seen two of these, one identical to the one in the picture, and one with a four-panel top door, but basically the same budget over/over of the type imported in their thousands before WW1 from Germany and sold relatively cheaply in the UK.

Construction is typical G&K, overstrung with the overdamper action clipped in either side with nasty spring clips that trap your fingers if you're not careful, but they sound really quite OK within the constraints of their age and type. Identical to a G&K in fact!

[Bill Kibby]

Well that's interesting! As you say, it sort of goes with it being pre-1914, but I'd say about 1897-ish. It sounds like you know more about pianos than the impression you gave us, so I supposwe you would know if there were any datemarks on the keys, or names and numbers on the action?

[PianoGuy]

It sounds like you know more about pianos than the impression you gave us,

Er....

I hope the impression that I give (whilst bowing to your vastly superior knowledge of the historical) is one of knowing shedloads about pianos, Bill!

[Bill Kibby]

Sorry, I thought that message was from matt!