Bechstein Model V with Schwander "tied" action

[Sandy McLeay]

I can not see how to disassemble this action.

It looks as if the hammer butt rail and hammers would come off simply by unscrewing the butt rail from its supporting posts (assuming that the dovetail joints have not been glued). It appears that the wippen rail could slide out sideways once unscrewed from its mountings if all 88 wippen flanges were first unscrewed from it. These screws are behind the backcheck wires, and have slotted heads, so it would need a really unusual screwdriver, apart from being an immensely tedious process. Even if I managed to get these 88 screws out, assuming that they were not so long that they would foul the backcheck wires, I can imagine that getting them back in again would be at least twice as hard.

I can not see how a single key lever could be removed without taking out these two rails first. Am I missing something?

If anyone could help me I would be most grateful!

[Gill the Piano]

The bit of wood between key and the bottom of the lever is 'plugged' into the back of the key; place your index finger at the point where the key appears to be joined to the lever, and push the key down with that finger whilst GENTLY pulling the lever and bit of wood upwards. It will - hopefully - unplug, to reveal the fact that the felt in the bottom of the prolonge is bushing the point where the prolonge grips onto a transverse pin. These actions are often dry and brittle, so do everything slowly, gently and firmly and hopefully you won't come to grief! They are an absolute s*d if you want to get the action out in a hurry...

[Sandy McLeay]

Gill, thank you for your prompt reply. I am having difficulty identifying the bits to which you refer, however. I should have made it clear that I am talking about a grand, whereas perhaps you are talking about an upright. There doesn't seem to be anything plugged into the key lever other than the backcheck wire. There is a rocker thing screwed to the top of the key lever where the capstan would be on a more modern action. A little post supporting the wippen towards the jack end is clipped to this rocker, which has two screws and rocks to adjust the height of the hammer in its rest position. Is it this post you are referring to (it is split vertically for 2/3 of its height to allow it to spread for clipping, and is closed shut, once clipped into place, by a single screw)?
If I unclip this post from the rocker thing and unscrew the wippen flange, I can lift out the wippen assembly but still can't get the key lever out.

Please excuse my terminology, but I do not have an action diagram with named parts for this particular action (and the diagram of a more modern action which I have is American, so the part names may be diferent from the UK). I am in Australia and (obviously) an amateur. The piano has the authentic-looking serial number 14153 on the iron frame and a fish tail case, which I think dates it to 1882.

[Gill the Piano]

That's what you get for reading too fast; yes, I was wibbling about the upright. Sorry!

[Barrie Heaton]

But the grand is the same but less space for your fingers

And a bigger pain to put back

If they have virdgrits (a green fungus) which a lot do in the more humid places of the USA the bushing tend to stay with the pin so you have to rebush the prolong

Barrie,

[Sandy McLeay]

Barrie,thank you for your input.
Am I correct in assuming that before I can lift out any of the key levers I must first do the following:
1. Unscrew and remove the hammer butt rail and hammers
2. Unscrew all the wippen flanges from the wippen rail
3. Unscrew and remove the wippen rail
?
Fortunately the action components are by and large in excellent condition and there is no sign of corrosion, distortion or cracking.

Your advice much appreciated

[Barrie Heaton]

Barrie,thank you for your input.
Am I correct in assuming that before I can lift out any of the key levers I must first do the following:
1. Unscrew and remove the hammer butt rail and hammers
2. Unscrew all the wippen flanges from the wippen rail
3. Unscrew and remove the wippen rail
?

That the hard way

I would normally take out the stack screws, put some wedges under the stack frame to lift it a little Bring all the hammers forward, then I start at the Bass and hold the key down with one hand at the back and lift the bottom section (Whippens) so that the prolong pops out, once you have popped them all out, the stack comes clear of the keys.

Some tuners use bent over screwdriver L shape and put it under the whippen and pull up I like to feel what they are doing. Ether way its backbreaking as you are leaning over.

Barrie,

[Sandy McLeay]

G'day Barrie
Once again, thank you for your great response. I think I've pretty well got the hang of this thing now. Could I just clarify a couple of points?

By 'stack', I take it that you mean the whole action including hammers, wippen/jack assemblies, the three rails (hammer butt, hammer rest and wippen) and the posts or brackets which support and secure these rails to the main action frame. Is this correct?

The 'stack screws' would then be the screws which attach these posts or brackets to the main action frame (the Bechstein has timber brackets but in a more modern action they would be cast metal I think). Have I got that right?

I'm not familiar with the term 'prolong'. I assume it is the little post which supports the wippen at about the point where the capstan would be in a more modern action.

Just one final thing, if I may. I have read your reply to Bill Kibby's post (26 January 2006) on lubricating the jack/roller contact surfaces of this type of action with Teflon powder. My rollers are somewhat indented, though the leather is not noticeably worn. Should I be replacing them, or is some degree of indentation unlikely to affect the smoothness of the action once they are lubricated?

With many thanks,
Sandy

[Bill Kibby]

It seems a very complicated conversation we have here. The enquiry heading was about a TIED ACTION. Bechstein came up with the idea that by "tying" the action to the key, this would remove lost motion (slack play) between the key and the action. The whole point (surely?) is that you can't remove a single key on most grands without taking the whole action off first. Normally, once a few screws are undone, the action lifts off. The best way to remove a tied action is to place small blocks under the ends of the action, lifting it just enough to give you access to the arrangement where every lever is clipped into its key. If you don't have this, it is not a tied action. Re-fitting afterwards is the same process. Some of your other questions suggest that you are not someone who has experience of repairing pianos, in which case your Bechstein is at risk! Is there a reason why you are not calling in someone who knows what they are doing?

[Barrie Heaton]

G'day Barrie
Once again, thank you for your great response. I think I've pretty well got the hang of this thing now. Could I just clarify a couple of points?

By 'stack', I take it that you mean the whole action including hammers, wippen/jack assemblies, the three rails (hammer butt, hammer rest and wippen) and the posts or brackets which support and secure these rails to the main action frame. Is this correct?

Yes

The 'stack screws' would then be the screws which attach these posts or brackets to the main action frame (the Bechstein has timber brackets but in a more modern action they would be cast metal I think). Have I got that right?

Yes

I'm not familiar with the term 'prolong'. I assume it is the little post which supports the wippen at about the point where the capstan would be in a more modern action.

Yes that is the bit that ties into the key

Just one final thing, if I may. I have read your reply to Bill Kibby's post (26 January 2006) on lubricating the jack/roller contact surfaces of this type of action with Teflon powder. My rollers are somewhat indented, though the leather is not noticeably worn. Should I be replacing them, or is some degree of indentation unlikely to affect the smoothness of the action once they are lubricated?

With many thanks,
Sandy

Replacing them would improve it a lot However, you can bolster them

That is to get some bushing cloth cut into 5 mm strips and thread it between the leather and the wad pad at the point or rest or 6 0'clock look at them from the side - this will round the rollers again you then very, very carefully sandpaper the rollers (knuckles USA) with 600g paper and take any indents out. However, this is a Judgement call the leather may be too thin, then put on some Teflon powder


Barrie,

[Sandy McLeay]

G'day Barrie
Once more, thank you so much for your helpful advice. I appreciate that a lot of this stuff must look obvious to eperienced professionals, but as stated previously, I am an amateur and proceding with caution on unfamiliar ground.

To Bill Kibby:
I spoke to three local piano technicians whom I understand to be among the most talented, capable and experienced and each one in turn advised "get rid of it and invest your money in a second hand Yamaha or Kawai". If I were a professional musician that would probably be good advice. However, I am not a professional musician and I love the old Bechstein. I can not justify the cost of having it professionally restored, even if I could find someone who was both capable and prepared to do it. I read of how professional restorers in the UK go about piano restoration and do not want to lose the patina of the gilding on the frame, or the tiny key numbers punched onto the hammer butts. I have reasonable mechanical and cabinet-making aptitude and am prepared to spend time and effort in replacing only what can not be retained ("do no harm" in Hypocratic terms). Do not condemn me because I proceed with caution, seeking advice from those who are generous enough to offer it.

When I have done my best I will get a professional to attend to the regulation and tuning. Oh, and thank you for explaining the background to the "tied" action - that makes it much clearer.
With best regards,
Sandy McLeay

[Barrie Heaton]

When I have done my best I will get a professional to attend to the regulation and tuning.

If you are mechanically mined then the regulating is not rocket science.

Your first job after you have removed the stack, is to take all the keys off the keybed and clean the dust off - then look at the Balance Rail and front touch pins see if there is any rust – if there is, very fine wire wool making sure you get all the bits off after.

I would then protec the pins this is a silicon spray - if you can’t get it then it’s the old fashioned way a strip of leather and polishing cream and buff them up, hard work

Then we can turn to the keys

Barrie,

[Sandy McLeay]

Barrie, encouraged by your comment about regulation, I re-read Reblitz on the subject carefully a couple of times. Before starting on the 24 steps of regulation I attended to the rollers. Rather than replacing them immediately, I tried "bolstering" rollers of the middle 2 1/2 octaves. Instead of bushing cloth, I tried several loops of fairly thick linen thread just under the leather and this, with careful sanding, has produced smooth round firm rollers of a reasonably consistent diameter onto which I have brushed microfine Teflon powder. In the long run, I think I will replace them all. Do you have any tips on detaching old rollers from shanks? Is it just a little water and a little heat and patience?
I've cleaned out all the keybed dust and there is no rust, but I think I'm going to have to re-bush the keys at both rails. I'm not sure how to work out what thickness of bushing cloth to get.

[Barrie Heaton]

First off all don’t make the rollers too hard or it will make the action noisy

I use some old pinchers with a stop on them - the wooden lip is not glued into the grove its just the glue on the leather that holds them in place steam will do it that remove the lip with pliers

Re bushing keys: all depends if they have been done before and what state the mortars (hole) are in. the best way for you to do it is measure the bat pin and the balance pin - then measure the slots you need 0.25mm play subtract the pin from the slot. You need wedges 0.5 larger than the pin to hold the bushing cloth in wile the glue set Animal glue is the best for this job PVA is ok


Barrie,

[Gavin1267]

Dear Barry/ Sandy,

This has been very useful. I also have a tied action 1905 Bechstein underdamper. It is still a magnificent instrument but I agree action removal and access to flanges and springs is a real headache. Much care required.

Gavin Templeton (Glasgow)