Buying a new or used piano for Grade6 (possibly Kawai K15)

Fred_FlintStoned · Post by **Fred_FlintStoned** » 16 May 2006, 07:24

HI.

My wife is grade6 but haven't played for years now, and both of us know nothing about buying pianos.

My wife have tried a few pianos (new/old) in a piano shop and have no particular preferance.

We want to buy a piano for around 2500 pounds.
But not sure to buy used or new.
We want a piano that has excellent quality in build and sound and will last forever.

We have seen used baby grands for £1500, new Yamaha for £2300 and plenty of used ones for aound £2500. But it is a lot of money to us and we don't want to make the wrong decision. We are keen on the Kawai K15. The shop says this is made in Japan, but it is only 110cm high and no extra supports under the keys. The shop says beware of Kawai KX15 which is made in China.

We also not sure if we should pay extra to buy locally (so that we see and play the piano before we buy) or buy cheaper on the internet?

Those used Yamamha U? looks fantastic on the web (from the Piano Man a link I found within this forum). Are these good buys?

Can someone advise so that we can make an informed decision?

yamaha2006 · Post by **yamaha2006** » 16 May 2006, 13:30

Hi,

First you will never get a new good piano for only 2500 pounds, this is quite impossible....
But you can get an used one (U Series for Yamaha).

Now I do recommend to try and test these pianos in a piano dealer such as Jacques Samuel (Edgware road) which has many brands : try the grotrian Steinweg, Bechstein and Yamaha in the used pianos floor.

If you want to play beautiful sounds you have to buy a strong and reliable piano.

For your budget, used pianos are the best solutions.

However, you might make up your mind and buy a new piano. A good yamaha is a new SU118 (about £7000 or 8000).

But at your place I will choose a german piano.

Fred_FlintStoned · Post by **Fred_FlintStoned** » 17 May 2006, 06:40

Thks Yamaha2006.

We did think abt buying a new Yamaha for a special price of £2000 a few years ago - but went against it because Yamaha was bought by a Chinese company and it was made in China - but we never did buy a piano - we had kids instead!

We are still keen on the new Kawai K15 at £2700 (made in Japan).
But certainly keen on German or British used pianos.

Which years/model are best to buy for grotrian Steinweg and Bechstein ?

And what do u think of the new Yamaha's made in China?

Thks again!

fumbler · Post by **fumbler** » 17 May 2006, 08:35

Hi,

Advice is always difficult to give, but here goes.

Have you thought about the Yamaha P121? UK build, European sound, large enough to produce a strong response, excellent build quality and durability, and good resale value should you wish to upgrade in a few years. It's also a gift at the discounted price that most dealers are offerring. There's also the Kemble K121ZT, a posher version made in the same factory, but a little more expensive (but also disounted at dealers). I would buy at a dealers, not necessarily local, rather than on the internet.

Rgds.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 17 May 2006, 17:51

Fred_FlintStoned wrote:Thks Yamaha2006.

We did think abt buying a new Yamaha for a special price of £2000 a few years ago - but went against it because Yamaha was bought by a Chinese company and it was made in China - but we never did buy a piano - we had kids instead!

Sorry but that is wrong. Yamaha opened a factory in China at the Pearl River Complex However, they only made the C110A which is now discontinued no Yamaha pianos that are for the west are made in China the other main production plant in the far east run by Yamaha is in Indonesia, the Gb1, the new B1 and B2 are made there and are very well made for the price

Other makes you may like to look at are Zimmerman made By Bechstein

Barrei,

Fred_FlintStoned · Post by **Fred_FlintStoned** » 18 May 2006, 06:02

Thks all for the replies.

Hmmm, the Kemble K12 is only £3000 on one of the links on this website - still it's £1000 above our budget and £300 more than the Kawai K15. But I heard Kemble is very good and that's why they hold their prices better.

Thks for the Yamaha update! I thought Yamaha was bought by a Chinese company because that's what the shop told us when we went to see the new Yamaha pianos a few years ago.Hmm, maybe we should take another look at the new Yamaha's now priced at £2300.

Thks again all!

ABR · Post by **ABR** » 18 May 2006, 12:03

I've been looking in this price range myself (Grade 8, but with 10 years of rust!). Having read various bits of advice on the web, I was initially looking at new pianos (there's a lot of pro-new propaganda out there). I have however, many pianos later, come to the conclusion that for £2,000 you're MUCH better off buying a used piano that you like the sound of, especially if you have no intention of upgrading later on - the more pianos I try, the more the sub-115cm pianos make me wince (even if some, like the Yamahas, have very nice actions)!

Have moved up to £3,000, and am still finding that that's at least £1,000 short of any new piano I could see myself spending many happy years with. P121's seem to be mythical - noone actually stocks them, even if they advertise them on their websites! Off to try Wendl & Lung's today, based on positive (if mixed) reports on this site - but what a time-consuming and emotional process this is! Last time I went through this was buying a house...

Fred_FlintStoned · Post by **Fred_FlintStoned** » 18 May 2006, 13:43

Hi Abr.

Nice to hear someoneelse in the same boat.
I have also moved my budget to £3000 - not that I am still looking for used pianos - but the new Kawai K18 (112cm high with support under keyboard) is price around there and looks stunning - compare with the £2500 Kawai K15 without support.

I would love to go for used piano - as with everything nowadays, old is better. But It is my wife playing and it will be her piano - and she wants new. She is not a perfectist, and wants one for leasure playing and also I guess a smaller and quieter piano will fit/sound better in a small semi.

Or is a bigger/taller piano still OK for a small room?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 18 May 2006, 18:56

ABR wrote:
Have moved up to £3,000, and am still finding that that's at least £1,000 short of any new piano I could see myself spending many happy years with. P121's seem to be mythical - noone actually stocks them, even if they advertise them on their websites! Off to try Wendl & Lung's today, based on positive (if mixed) reports on this site - but what a time-consuming and emotional process this is! Last time I went through this was buying a house...

The P121NT and the P116 are the only piano that Yam have not put up their prices, so the discounted price on most website of £3000.00 is correct unlike most of the other models (some dealers will get stung if they don’t have the old price pianos in stock ) but watch out for the extras like delivery, tuning they are a nice piano that why they go quite quick when discounted. If you opt for the Dark American Walnut Satin you can get it at 2,939.00 at some sites but you will have to wait as more than likely they don’t have it in stock.

Barrie,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 18 May 2006, 21:13

At the end of the day if the pianos sound good – feels good and with a Renner action it should if the price fits your wallet then the name is not important enjoy your piano

Barrie,

ABR · Post by **ABR** » 18 May 2006, 21:26

Finally bought one.

Liked the Wendl & Lung very much for the price (manager wasn't around, but the assistant thought it would be about £2,500), but the one I tried was voiced a fraction too soft - felt like a proper piano though, and tall enough to have satisfying low end (121cm). (By the way, tall doesn't necessarily mean loud, Fred, and small doesn't mean quiet - some of the smaller Yamahas are really in your face, and would murder a lounge like mine that has hardly any soft furnishings).

While looking at the Wendl, I got a call from elsewhere offering me a (new) piano I'd really liked for 25% less than the price on the tag, which had been out of my reach, so I got that one: a Bohemia 123, with Renner action. Noone seems to have heard of them (they also make Rieger Kloss, Hofmann and Czerny, and Schlogl, if that means anything to anyone), but it was easily the best I heard for under £5,000 (paid £3k, which is probably a fairer price) and the tone was exactly what I was looking for (just to the soft side of neutral).

Don't know if it's a Yamaha-beater (doubt it somehow...), but certainly beats the clapped out, never-once-tuned piano that got me through the grades!

ABR · Post by **ABR** » 18 May 2006, 21:46

Incidentally, if you're looking in London, Fred, go to Jaques Samuel's, as someone else said - about a dozen of their new pianos currently have big reductions on account of almost imperceptable cosmetic damage caused by building work. They've also got a 1974 U3 in immaculate condition for dead on £3k (my second choice). Plus they sell/hire out pianos to Vladimir Ashkenazy, Ivo Pogorelich and their ilk, which is a fairly good recommendation!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 May 2006, 06:34

3k's a bit steep for a '74 U3, even an immaculate one. 2.6k nearer the mark.

Fred_FlintStoned · Post by **Fred_FlintStoned** » 19 May 2006, 12:00

'Fraid we live in the northern country Abr

btw, what's renner?

And thks for the tip that taller not necc. mean louder and vice-versa.

We are still on a lookout for a discounted Kawai K18. Fraid the wife have killed the used-piano theme

My wife is asking abt the following, can anyone help?
- Using some anti-damp things inside the piano
- Worth using a keyboard cover
- if we replace our carpet with laminate, would that be a no-no for a piano room
- location of a piano (near window, sun, radiator, warm/cold room)
- worry abt getting a piano in - if tilted on it's side still OK?

Cheers everyone!

yamaha2006 · Post by **yamaha2006** » 19 May 2006, 12:07

Personnally , that will depend on your level...

If you play virtuosos pieces, then buy a small grotrian or zimmermann.

Otherwise, you can buy a small upright 121 from Yamaha...or even the P109 which is very good !

what kind of music could you play or would you like to play?

ABR · Post by **ABR** » 19 May 2006, 12:18

That's reassuring. Is there any truth to the suggestion from a couple of dealers that Yamaha UK are changing their Yamaha line - hence the scarcity of P-prefixed pianos? That would also explain why that's the only Yamaha range whose prices haven't risen.

fumbler · Post by **fumbler** » 19 May 2006, 13:59

Fred_FlintStoned wrote:btw, what's renner?

- Using some anti-damp things inside the piano
- Worth using a keyboard cover
- if we replace our carpet with laminate, would that be a no-no for a piano room
- location of a piano (near window, sun, radiator, warm/cold room)
- worry abt getting a piano in - if tilted on it's side still OK?

Renner is a manufacturer of quality piano actions. I think that Kawai make their own actions, as a significant part of their actions are constructed of some high-tech plastic (I bet they hate people saying that their actions are plastic. It's ABS or whatever!) Piano Guy will tell you what Yamaha use in what models.

Anti-damp? It depends on the humidity in the room. If you have a modern house then there's probably no problem. In an older house then you will have to measure the humidity, or take the hint from your eyes and nose, and anything festering in cupboards. I wouldn't use any anti-damp. or humidifier, unless I had to. You can make things worse.

Keyboard cover? Just close the fall when the piano isn't in use, if you can remember to do so every time.

Laminate floor? Inherently nore echoey, but furninshings, rugs, etc will help to dampen this down. It depends how minimalist you are.

Location? Not in direct sunlight (or gloom as it is today). Not next, or close, to a radiator. Not on an outside wall.

Tilting? No problem if done reasonably. Grands are tranported on their side. A few minutes on its side once in a lifetime (well, twice, as it will go eventually) will not hurt.

Good luck with your choice. Rgds.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 May 2006, 17:23

Yamaha use nothing but Yamaha actions in their pianos! ... those dirty old Renner bits wouldn't get a look in!

Yes, Yamaha are changing their model range. The C range (109,110 and 113) is no longer available except for old stock. It's replaced by the Indonesian built B range: The B1 is 110cm high and the B2 is 113cm. The P prefix is reserved for the British built models, and there hasn't been a P10anything for years.

It's all very well being told to get a Zimmermann, but they're well outside your budget. Don't even consider a pre-Bechstein Zimmermann because they're crap, and the only Grotrian you'll find for under 3K will be an old munter. Fumbler's other suggestion of a 121cm Yamaha is spot on and you'll have seen many of these badged as U1s. Ideally get a U1 with a serial number greater than 4 million. 5 million is better. If you can find a UK market one you'll be lucky but they're worth a premium. Pianos badged as MC301, MC101 or similar are technically U1s too, but a Japanese designation and worth a tad less. They're just as good in every way except residual value, so if you buy one make sure it's cheap, and you've netted yourself a bargain.... Provided you don't want to sell it!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 20 May 2006, 14:57

PianoGuy wrote:
Yes, Yamaha are changing their model range. The C range (109,110 and 113) is no longer available except for old stock. It's replaced by the Indonesian built B range: The B1 is 110cm high and the B2 is 113cm. The P prefix is reserved for the British built models, and there hasn't been a P10anything for years.

The B1 is 109cm (3'6") I believe it is just the old C109 that was made Indonesia with a new name and finishes and now with a silent system

I have been told that you can not get the new Bs un prepped by Yamaha UK as you could with the Cs So you will not see 30% discount on the Bs yet but they are still being discounted quite a lot

What will be interesting to see if Yamaha introduce the two level pricing on real pianos as they have on Keyboards That will kill some of the discounting.

Barrie,

tim75 · Post by **tim75** » 23 Jun 2006, 00:29

Hi, I know it's been a while since any other replies to this post but I thought I should just add some of my experiences. I myself am in search of a new piano, again used is out of the window for me. I have always had a love for the Yamaha sound and their recent additions have caught my eye.

The B1 and B2 models that replace the C range have undergone some positive improvements from the C110A, C109 and C113 models. The B1 and B2s now, for instance, feature solid bonded back posts adding strength and richness to the sound. The soundboard itself is 4-ply but is of high quality maple. The action remains a quality Yamaha action; for those of us that like the Yamaha action, and the cases are well designed with a range of finishes (more available in November 2006). The B1 with it's modern case is recommended at £1,899 but you can pick it up for less than £1,400! A bargain for a new piano, you wouldn't get much better for that price.

My own search for a piano is limited as I want a good sound but prefer the modern cabinet style as I can only just about squeeze it in. Yamaha now only offer two models with the modern case design; the B1 (as mentioned) and the P114N (previously P112N). The P114N is my choice. I want the best sound I can get from a Yamaha but, as I say, want the modern case. The P114N is a UK made piano with little improvement from the P112N as the piano inside the case is very much the same, they have instead put a 2cm gap at the bottom to improve the look of the case. But never the less, for £2200, this is a quality piano with a decent sound.

I think Yamaha have some fantastic instruments now that can be picked up for hugely discounted prices. The P Series are definately worth a look at. The P121 is the same spec as a U1 but UK built, the only differences come in the case design such as the lack of a soft-close fallboard, but who uses that anyway? Albeit a good safety feature.